AEG to HPA -- Pros and Cons?

[ThatGnomeGuy]

Firstly, I am new to Airsoft, and as such, I'm drawn to the LMG/Support class of guns. (Real steel examples are very expensive, even semi-auto versions of various LMGs, but they look cool, so there's a natural draw.) And, yes, I understand that LMGs are less than ideal in play due to their weight, etc., but let's assume I enjoy the LMG support role and have some understanding of how LMGs are used to suppress and support. To this end, I have an L86A2 LSW on order ...

I have heard that AEG motors and gears suffer and wear quickly when used in the LMG role, and am wondering about doing HPA conversions on any worn-out AEG LMGs I acquire as I get deeper into the hobby. (I have no actual mechanical knowledge here regarding Airsoft, and am operating entirely on things I've heard about the various systems used to deliver BBs.)

1. Does this make sense? It seems (again, I really know nothing here) as though HPA is well-suited to use in the suppression/support role, as there's nothing to overheat, no battery to wear out, etc.

2. How tough would this conversion be, in a VERY generalized sense?

3. Any other pros/cons that I may not be seeing?

[Rentax]

1. Most HPA still use a battery, it's just a much smaller lipo. And with newer technology batter life is lasing a lot longer than in the past. Although there is a motor to over heat, you'd have to be doing some pretty serious shooting to have your motor overheat. I drained almost 2500 rounds in about an hour long engagement at a two day milsim event and I didn't see any motor issues. Rough math say that's about 40 rounds a minuet. Look at it this way, these gearboxes much like the HPA kits are built to do one thing and as long as you don't try and over load the system, it's going to do that thing well. (when I say over load the systems, I'm talking about adding super fast gears, or a really heavy spring)

2. The conversion would be fairly easy. As most of them are drop in kits they are not too difficult to convert. Two caviats to this, As long as they build a unit for your gearbox style, and no custom work needs to be done, AND figuring out where the hose run goes.

3. See below.

It depends on what you are going for...
Most HPA guys prefer HPA because of the Pro's:
They can get a more consistent air regulation, near silent operation and a lot of them make tweaks to their system to get a substantially high rate of fire...
While most HPA systems are drop in systems the buy in for an HPA systems in going to cost you more money because you also need a regulator, tanks, etc. And since they are drop in kits if they fail, they fail hard, fast and you are left having to buy a new drop in kit which often costs as much as a new AEG.
AEG's definitely take more time and energy to get right, and if you choose to do it yourself (which I recommend) they will require some research and learning. But they are usually built so that if one part of the system goes down you are just left replacing that part. I'm not saying cascade failure isn't possible, but it's rare and even then usually it's a few replaceable parts and doesn't require a full buy in again. And parts, as long as they are still being made, can be less expensive.

THe first basic question is what is your plan for the weapon, are you just playing with friends in the back yard, or going to a local field for a friendly game, or are you planning on doing some moderate to hardcore Milsim? The first few it's dealers choice, but if you are looking to go the milsim route then you are going to want to consider a few things,
First and foremost tactics... In my opinion the LMG weapon platform being used to in it's proper capacity is to throw a lot of weight at your targets. Your job is to lay down cover fire, keeps heads down, and make damn sure EVERYONE is looking at you so your unit can maneuver. This mean loud and proud... Because of this LMG/HPA conversions don't make much sense to me, they are too quiet and won't give you the effect you are looking for. Also Milsim event can last 2 or 3 days, you're on the field full immersion the whole time, carrying a few extra batteries no big deal, carrying a few extra tanks is a different story. and if your gun goes down knowing how to tech it is essential. I ran a PKM at a milsim event a little over a year ago. We hit the field for a 2 day event and I had an entire extra gearbox for my gun in my pack so if something went wrong we could tech it right there on the field. That's would be a lot more expensive with and HPA system.

There is one HPA conversion that stands out. Daytona Kit makes some HPA drop in conversion kits that sound loud and nasty (in the good way) and these kits are great for LMG's and will turn heads on the field. But that only works if they made on for your gun, if you can find one in stock, and even then they are quite expensive. And on top of all that THEY ARE FINICKY. They are known to have a 10k round break in period. which means you have to fiddle with it a lot to get it right.




Just my 2 cents

[ThatGnomeGuy]

1. Most HPA still use a battery ...
Just my 2 cents

Thank you, Rentax. This is the sort of exp.'d perspective I was hoping to get. I'd like to do some serious gaming, and some fairly legit Milsim.

In i's own way, I imagine this will get as expensive as my real steel stuff, with the attendant boxes of ..."junk(?)" that comes with these sorts of pastimes. Money's not a huge object, but I have to divvy the loot up between three or four (occasionally) expensive hobbies, so I suppose I've got some budgeting things to think about if I go HPA. You make a good case for leaving things mostly stock, though ...

Airsoft will be my stand-in for real steel activities in the near future, at least until firearms ammo becomes less scarce, so it's safe to say Airsoft will be my thing in the long-term, too. I suppose I need to begin thinking about sussing out parts sources for the guns I pick up before I pick them up. I can't see myself screwing with ROF or trying to push BBS too hard, but I can see myself working the gun to make it as smooth and functional/reliable as possible.

Again, much thanks for the food for thought.

[Rentax]

For me and many of the of the guys I play with, we use airsoft as a training tool, so our weapons are as close to their counter parts as possible. And we like the immersion aspects of the sport so we use real world gear and try and look the part. So when you talk about HPA, having that air line hooked up to the tank is a real down side for me. I know a lot of the HPA guys say they "hardly notice it anymore" but I do.
The Daytona kit, in my opinion, is the only kit that brings more interest to the table to make having an air tube worth the hassle.

[ThatGnomeGuy]

Yeah, I could potentially put up with the HPA on an LMG specifically because I'm not likely to need to get practice in with a real steel one. For carbines and pistol, I am picking up GBBs. The plastic-y feel and high cap mags in AEGs are hard for the hands to take seriously. I get that people say GBBRs are trouble-prone, but if nothing else, I'll get good practice doing transitions with the AR or AK platform GBBS fail or run into trouble.
Since you mentioned a degree of realism, what/where are the opportunities to do somewhat legit play with realistic round counts in mags (facilitating round count awareness), where people need to change out mags while in the poop, or transition until they're in a better spot, etc.?
(Again, I'm a noob, and have no idea how valid my perspectives are, as such. I expect I'll modify those perspectives as I gain exp.; in the meantime your insights are much appreciated.)

[Rentax]

I love the KWA LM4 platform, they are great for training. They act and respond extremely similar to their real world counterpart and the kick, although much smaller than a real 5.56, it makes using it fun. The mags are real cap and weighted very similar to full real world mag. HOWEVER, they need a lot of upkeep and can be VERY temperamental in cold weather, which can make it hard to run for 5 month of the year here in the pacific northwest. There are many AEG companies that are using metal on their guns and metal mags are also quite easy to come by, so what it comes down to is what is it you are looking to achieve in your training. If you are doing it to get used to the weight and similar weapon mechanics and real capacity mags, a KWA LM4 is the way to go, if you are are looking for weapon manipulation, the ergonomics of mag reloads, and the brain training for using a weapon then an AEG will do just fine for all that.
A note here on real cap vs mid cap vs high cap in airsoft. Because BB's are flying at much lower velocities than a bullet does they are more prone to the effects of air movement. breezes or wind can manipulate your BB's fairly easily at longer ranges. In general I find myself fire 3-5 shots for every single shot one would take with a real rifle. This means for a 32 round mag you are either reloading 3 times more often, or you need to hold 3 time more ammo. Because of this I run midcaps, my midcaps hold around 80 rounds or so, I still get the experience of firing, running dry and changing mags, just not every 32 seconds in a fire fight. A lot of people are airsofting as a hobby, you know to have fun, you've heard of fun before right? So they aren't concerned with real cap mags or how their gun works, they just want that video game experience in real life (as we all do because it is an enjoyable experience) This means that most events you go to are not going to be hardcore rule sets, that make the game difficult on the player. The culture of airsoft just isn't there for that type of gameplay. So it becomes a balancing act for players who want heavy elements of realism, but also want to stay competitive in the game.

Depending on how you play, changing out mags "while you're in the poop" as you say will not be a problem. Just don't top your mags off and let them run till you are dry. You said it yourself "round count awareness" is truly that, awareness of how many rounds you have fired weather that is 80 or 32, being aware of how much you are shooting and knowing about how many rounds you have, I will often find myself reloading in a fire fight before my mag goes dry just to make sure I don't run out while I'm out of cover. And If I do run out, then I fall back on my training, transition to a pistol and fight to cover to do my reloads. For me it's about learning the skills and how those skills translate to the real world. You don't have to perfectly simulate the real world to learn the skills, you just have to translate them to the situation you are in, and let me tell you muscle memory is an amazing translator.

Perfect realism is hard to find, the closest thing we had was a series of CQC events back in the day. Each team would run through a series of scenarios, each scenario would have a group of actors who were instructed to do the same or similar things for each group, some actors had specific instructions depending on who they were portraying. Weapons were loaded to real cap, equipment and location hits were in effect, as in if you got hit in the helmet you would take a knee for a few seconds before returning to the fight, if you got hit in the arm you couldn't use that lib for the rest of the scenario, things like that. The admins would assess how well the groups did on a point based system judging them on military/pmc or police based ROEs depending on the scenario. It was a VERY in depth event series, and got to be pretty big. The last one was CQC7 back in 2011 I believe got recognition in an airsoft magazine from the UK. Groups would train all year for the upcoming CQC event. It was a pretty serious thing. But that group dissolved and the community hasn't kept up the practice so it's back to square one for event hosts if they want to build something like that back up.

To be honest the higher end milsim games don't even require real caps, because changing mags every 32 rounds would actually make the firefights feel less real. It's an odd perspective, because how could doing something more realistic make it feel less real, but because it takes 3-5 bb's to do what 1 actual bullet would do, it would change the way we fight to a less realistic battle style, and there is a good chance it would ruin the immersion.
It's like when you tell people they only have 1 life to live suddenly the game becomes molasses and everyone spends most of their time hiding in a dark corner hoping to be the last one alive and the effects are detrimental to the game itself, that what the idea of real cap mags does to most airsoft players.

Again these are just my 2 cents.

[Rentax]

CQC7 Footage
http://airsoftpacific.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=36376&p=590624#p590624
http://airsoftpacific.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=35625

[ThatGnomeGuy]

CQC7 Footage
http://airsoftpacific.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=36376&p=590624#p590624
http://airsoftpacific.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=35625

Magnificent!

[Disfunctional]

For me and many of the of the guys I play with, we use airsoft as a training tool, so our weapons are as close to their counter parts as possible. And we like the immersion aspects of the sport so we use real world gear and try and look the part. So when you talk about HPA, having that air line hooked up to the tank is a real down side for me. I know a lot of the HPA guys say they "hardly notice it anymore" but I do.
The Daytona kit, in my opinion, is the only kit that brings more interest to the table to make having an air tube worth the hassle.

I have a tippmann m4 that is hpa but it has recoil.to.it and it is louder than most hpa. It's definitely the more realistic airsoft gun over ever shot/own.

[Rentax]

Ah yes, thanks for bring this up. I did not touch on the Tipman platform. Although I have seen them at games, and know a few guys who own them, they are not widely used in our area. I have had the chance to shoot them (as they the few I have seen come through chrono) but haven't extensively "used one". They do have some cool features including small in-line tanks that fit in a special buffer tubes, so you don't have to have the air lines, as well as a heavy recoil kit. The stock tipman recoil is less than impressive, in my opinion, but it does have some recoil. From what I have seen and heard the gas tipmans are a very decent product. It's 100% mechanical, so although there is no way to adjust the rate of fire (without short stroking them, which I have never seen someone do to a tipman so I don't even know if it possible) a lot of the guys who run them see this as a good thing.

[ThatGnomeGuy]

Are the Tippman gas guns worth considering? How are they for outfitting with "real steel" accessories? I would love a near-clone of my 10.5 pistol, with all the Magpullin' and Vortexxin'.