* Friendly Fire on Saturday - A Case Study for Uniforms *

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Re: * Friendly Fire on Saturday - A Case Study for Uniforms

Postby Payback » Mon Jun 01, 2015 6:10 pm

Tankwitch wrote:Armbands can be realistic in certain situations. Look at the one time communist rebel group "FARC." Both sides used the same weapons and uniforms so they identified themselves with large armbands. Friendly fire was a big problem in that conflict.

Newbs need games where they can be newbs. They need both large and small games in order to both learn the game and find a play style the fits them.Expecting everyone to jump into the requirements of mil-sim or tac-sim is unrealistic for both the players.

On another point not all airsofters are into airsoft as a military simulation game. Some people just want a fun way to exercise, some are fans of military firearms, some like military history, others are defectors from paintball, and so on. Limiting airsoft to a one ideal limits the fun of it and would kill the game for several groups of people. If the community is to grow we have to allow for lots of different ways to play and enjoy airsoft.



Holy cow, 100% on point with this. My thoughts exactly.
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Re: * Friendly Fire on Saturday - A Case Study for Uniforms

Postby Rentax » Mon Jun 01, 2015 6:43 pm

Tankwitch wrote:Armbands can be realistic in certain situations. Look at the one time communist rebel group "FARC." Both sides used the same weapons and uniforms so they identified themselves with large armbands. Friendly fire was a big problem in that conflict.

I actually don't have a problem with Armbands as part of a uniform requirement if it makes sense. Like in the case Tankwitch, has made above. If it's called for because of realism and aides the event host in team selection, then I'm all for it, but in the case of only one team wears white shemags, that's penalizing that team for no reason...
Also I like the fact that you followed you statement up wit "Friendly fire was a big problem in that conflict" because it's almost like living proof that ARMBANDS DON'T WORK!

I thought I was clear about the fact that I agree that new players need games. That new players in both large and small groups need time to learn the game and learn their individual play style. I'm not saying we shouldn't give them their day(s) in the sun and allow them to find their way. But that doesn't mean that an event host has to hold their hand and baby them the whole way. Event hosts that expect more out of their players are the ones that put on the bigger and better events. Event hosts that host to the lowest common denominator, their event will never get any better because they are not pushing their players to better themselves. Their players won't learn Positive Target Identification, if it's never expected of them. I know for a fact that "requirements" is not a work I use, and it's not something I expect from anyone. (Hell most people cant make it to a game with the "required" death rag, why should I assume they will make it with anything else?) I'm not asking hosts to require uniforms, as a matter of fact I talked about using civilian clothing as a pattern for helping to lump teams together. This way players get to work on and hone their target identification skills and it helps them better themselves.
You touched on the fact that not all airsofters are into Mil-sim or Tac-soft, and I agree there are many reasons that players play airsoft. But why play airsoft over say paintball, or Lazertag, and that comes back to the realism of it. From what I have seen most people are drawn to airsoft because they enjoy the realistic aspects of Airsoft, over those of say paintball or lazertag. Weather that's the realism of the weapons themselves, the way airsoft make military history more real for them (PS I'm assuming your talking about Vietnam or WW2 airsofters or re-enactors here and they are notorious for having staunch requirements for their events) even most of the defectors from paintball that I have talked to say they like airsoft because it's more realistic and they enjoy it's use of higher level of field tactics. I'm not limiting airsoft to one idea, I'm saying that for most people the enjoyment of airsoft all stems from the same place, realism. And the more a host can do to push his games to a more realistic feel the more people seem to enjoy it.
Which sounds like a better game:
A: "hold point X for 5 min's and then leave and your team get 10 points"
B: "You have to move to point X, hold it for 5 min's while the bomb is set and then exfil. Once your last man is out the bomb goes off and your team gets 10 points"
It's the same game, but the realism of the story makes players want to play. If you set up a sound effect of a bomb that goes off when they exfil it's all the more amazing and fun for the players.
Realism is what drives airsoft.
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Re: * Friendly Fire on Saturday - A Case Study for Uniforms

Postby Shortbu » Mon Jun 01, 2015 7:01 pm

First off, what field are you guys talking about?
Secondly, there's good and bad points to both sides. Small arm bands, hidden or removed, indistinguishable colors, plots so bright it makes it almost impossible for snipers/DM's to hide. Some camo patterns become difficult to distinguish when faded, and as Rentax stated, knockoff Multicam can be pretty green. I have ArcTeryx Multicams, which are issue for military and LE, and they are greener than Cryes.
There's always going to be some level of confusion, just as in real life. Proper use of comms, and running in squads helps so as to know approximately where other teammates are and what they are trying to accomplish. But even that's not fool proof. Hell, been on my team with Rentax for a few years, and I still shot his a$$ at a Silverton Skirm when I got turned around.
Basically at this point I realize it is what it is, and just hope my teammates use target recognition. Only time I get irritated with it, is when it's really close.
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Re: * Friendly Fire on Saturday - A Case Study for Uniforms

Postby Payback » Mon Jun 01, 2015 9:36 pm

Shortbu wrote:First off, what field are you guys talking about?
Secondly, there's good and bad points to both sides. Small arm bands, hidden or removed, indistinguishable colors, plots so bright it makes it almost impossible for snipers/DM's to hide. Some camo patterns become difficult to distinguish when faded, and as Rentax stated, knockoff Multicam can be pretty green. I have ArcTeryx Multicams, which are issue for military and LE, and they are greener than Cryes.
There's always going to be some level of confusion, just as in real life. Proper use of comms, and running in squads helps so as to know approximately where other teammates are and what they are trying to accomplish. But even that's not fool proof. Hell, been on my team with Rentax for a few years, and I still shot his a$$ at a Silverton Skirm when I got turned around.
Basically at this point I realize it is what it is, and just hope my teammates use target recognition. Only time I get irritated with it, is when it's really close.

This is at Action Acres. The arm band colors are always green and blue.

The arm bands in question are marking tape tied to an elastic band. Usually there are two long tails per band. They are plenty visible when worn correctly. If a player chooses to hide theirs, or take it off, or wear it incorrectly they are effectively cheating and will be corrected (I had several people i reminded to fix theirs that day).

I have talked to the game host about it, they aren't going to use the sweat bands due to cost, and not wanting to require kiddo's to buy them. But they are evolving the system each time. Again, this game was unusual with the amount of friendly fire. One reason they only used 1 per arm was the supply was low since hardly any were returned, and more people showed than expected. ( I know, lets hear the criticism on that)

I can go on and on about my feelings toward milsim and the teams that only play that type of game. But that's not what this topic is about, it's about friendly fire at a game hosted by a field that is for the casual player. They will never use camo as a team split. They will use arm bands, or something similar.

I will also say that during this same game i saw allot of people having fun, sharing stories of pew pewing each other, and allot of team work for those who wanted it. I didn't see teams off on their own huddled up away from the rest of the groups.

My best suggestion, come out and play. I know you'll have fun. If not, you're doing it wrong.
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Re: * Friendly Fire on Saturday - A Case Study for Uniforms

Postby ogrejager » Mon Jun 01, 2015 9:40 pm

Shortbu wrote:Basically at this point I realize it is what it is, and just hope my teammates use target recognition. Only time I get irritated with it, is when it's really close.


We do. We actually recognize that it's you and then shoot. :p
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Re: * Friendly Fire on Saturday - A Case Study for Uniforms

Postby Shortbu » Mon Jun 01, 2015 10:29 pm

ogrejager wrote:
Shortbu wrote:Basically at this point I realize it is what it is, and just hope my teammates use target recognition. Only time I get irritated with it, is when it's really close.


We do. We actually recognize that it's you and then shoot. :p

Touché muthaf..ka! :D
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Re: * Friendly Fire on Saturday - A Case Study for Uniforms

Postby Shortbu » Mon Jun 01, 2015 10:46 pm

Payback wrote:
Shortbu wrote:First off, what field are you guys talking about?
Secondly, there's good and bad points to both sides. Small arm bands, hidden or removed, indistinguishable colors, plots so bright it makes it almost impossible for snipers/DM's to hide. Some camo patterns become difficult to distinguish when faded, and as Rentax stated, knockoff Multicam can be pretty green. I have ArcTeryx Multicams, which are issue for military and LE, and they are greener than Cryes.
There's always going to be some level of confusion, just as in real life. Proper use of comms, and running in squads helps so as to know approximately where other teammates are and what they are trying to accomplish. But even that's not fool proof. Hell, been on my team with Rentax for a few years, and I still shot his a$$ at a Silverton Skirm when I got turned around.
Basically at this point I realize it is what it is, and just hope my teammates use target recognition. Only time I get irritated with it, is when it's really close.

This is at Action Acres. The arm band colors are always green and blue.

The arm bands in question are marking tape tied to an elastic band. Usually there are two long tails per band. They are plenty visible when worn correctly. If a player chooses to hide theirs, or take it off, or wear it incorrectly they are effectively cheating and will be corrected (I had several people i reminded to fix theirs that day).

I have talked to the game host about it, they aren't going to use the sweat bands due to cost, and not wanting to require kiddo's to buy them. But they are evolving the system each time. Again, this game was unusual with the amount of friendly fire. One reason they only used 1 per arm was the supply was low since hardly any were returned, and more people showed than expected. ( I know, lets hear the criticism on that)

I can go on and on about my feelings toward milsim and the teams that only play that type of game. But that's not what this topic is about, it's about friendly fire at a game hosted by a field that is for the casual player. They will never use camo as a team split. They will use arm bands, or something similar.

I will also say that during this same game i saw allot of people having fun, sharing stories of pew pewing each other, and allot of team work for those who wanted it. I didn't see teams off on their own huddled up away from the rest of the groups.

My best suggestion, come out and play. I know you'll have fun. If not, you're doing it wrong.

I don't just play Milsim type games whatsoever. Actually only been to one MSW game in my life. I enjoy it, but I also enjoy the pew pew games, and fun banter entailed. I would try a game there, but unfortunately, the host and I seem to have irreconcilable differences, which I choose not to get into. I will say it's unfortunate as I'd much rather get along with everybody than not, and the whole issue is really pretty silly. Wouldn't be against hurrying the hatchet, if the opportunity ever presented itself.
I also won't get into any criticism about arm band supply being low. I wasn't there, and don't have the slightest idea how he runs things, or policies on returning bands. Not my place to criticize an event, or host when I wasn't there.
I know the games there are geared towards the newer players, and I think that's great. The more that get into the sport/hobby the better. It's good for younger players to have a place to "cut their teeth" so to speak, and I actually really enjoy running with newer players and helping them learn the ropes. It's one of the many things about the games at The Swamp that I enjoy the most.
Whether it's a full blown Milsim, a "Rick" game, or a free skirm, I always have fun. That's what this supposed to be about anyway, isn't it?
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Re: * Friendly Fire on Saturday - A Case Study for Uniforms

Postby ClownBaby » Mon Jun 01, 2015 11:32 pm

3M/Scotch brand duct tape in the light blue and lime green work well, they are unnatural colors. Cheaper than the Duck brand.
One on each arm, a strip on the back for Jew and anybody else who's smart.

Hey Cruz, don't you have a big old scope on that thing? ;)

And yes, Bu and Brad should bury the hatchet. You would love that place, lots of long shots for yer LMG.
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Re: * Friendly Fire on Saturday - A Case Study for Uniforms

Postby Rentax » Tue Jun 02, 2015 12:56 am

That's a Blue Force Tracker... The Military has those. Theirs are a little bigger, but it's the same basic idea.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Force_Tracking
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Re: * Friendly Fire on Saturday - A Case Study for Uniforms

Postby ogrejager » Tue Jun 02, 2015 8:33 am

ClownBaby wrote:3M/Scotch brand duct tape in the light blue and lime green work well, they are unnatural colors. Cheaper than the Duck brand.


I do agree with this. Duct tape seems to work well.

You do need to make sure the colors are visible, though, and equally visible otherwise one team does get an advantage.
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Re: * Friendly Fire on Saturday - A Case Study for Uniforms

Postby Tankwitch » Tue Jun 02, 2015 12:59 pm

Rentax wrote:
Tankwitch wrote:Armbands can be realistic in certain situations. Look at the one time communist rebel group "FARC." Both sides used the same weapons and uniforms so they identified themselves with large armbands. Friendly fire was a big problem in that conflict.

I actually don't have a problem with Armbands as part of a uniform requirement if it makes sense. Like in the case Tankwitch, has made above. If it's called for because of realism and aides the event host in team selection, then I'm all for it, but in the case of only one team wears white shemags, that's penalizing that team for no reason...
Also I like the fact that you followed you statement up wit "Friendly fire was a big problem in that conflict" because it's almost like living proof that ARMBANDS DON'T WORK!

The arm bands were introduced in that conflict to reduce friendly fire incidents and it worked dramatically well. I included that last comment so that a history buff wouldn't bust me for being inaccurate about that period in time.

Even the best trained mil-sim group is closer to a militia than an actual military unit. It would be very hard to convince people to take the time for a intense multi-week training and conditioning boot camp.
But it would be pretty awesome.

Games that challenge you vary on who you are and your experience level in the sport and your familiarity with what your trying to do. The game in question had some break down due to the rules being a little complex for a beginner game. I've encountered moving spawn points before, and it adds a layer of complexity that didn't really help the game. Moving spawn points sound like an interesting twist but it makes the game break down.
I'm a major chairsofter, sorry about that.
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Re: * Friendly Fire on Saturday - A Case Study for Uniforms

Postby Payback » Tue Jun 02, 2015 3:14 pm

Tankwitch wrote:. Moving spawn points sound like an interesting twist but it makes the game break down.


This was 100% my fault. The spawn point was moved to make the game more even. Basically travel time from green spawn was twice as far as blue. So blue got moved, At the start of the game i put blue where i thought i was told, but i was told East road, and in my mind i thought West road for some reason. So after blue was all set up i was corrected and moved them all. After that the spawn never changed, but i screwed up at the start.



And to Shortbus, My reply wasn't directed at you after naming what field, i didn't make that break in the comment as well as i should. I wasn't criticizing you at all, I've never met you so i have no way to know :)


For the field, the owners have about 80% say in what goes as it's their money that goes to improvements and props. They are really great people and about the nicest you could know. So the event host gets to say what the game type is and that's about it. Even the dates are locked in for him, that's why he's set games out for the whole year already.

I'm just a pushy player that likes to help rather than sit and watch.
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Re: * Friendly Fire on Saturday - A Case Study for Uniforms

Postby Shortbu » Tue Jun 02, 2015 6:51 pm

Payback wrote:
Tankwitch wrote:. Moving spawn points sound like an interesting twist but it makes the game break down.


This was 100% my fault. The spawn point was moved to make the game more even. Basically travel time from green spawn was twice as far as blue. So blue got moved, At the start of the game i put blue where i thought i was told, but i was told East road, and in my mind i thought West road for some reason. So after blue was all set up i was corrected and moved them all. After that the spawn never changed, but i screwed up at the start.



And to Shortbus, My reply wasn't directed at you after naming what field, i didn't make that break in the comment as well as i should. I wasn't criticizing you at all, I've never met you so i have no way to know :)


For the field, the owners have about 80% say in what goes as it's their money that goes to improvements and props. They are really great people and about the nicest you could know. So the event host gets to say what the game type is and that's about it. Even the dates are locked in for him, that's why he's set games out for the whole year already.

I'm just a pushy player that likes to help rather than sit and watch.

It's all good. I didn't take it as you coming at me at all. I was just clarifying my stance to anybody reading the thread. Actually, I've really only had issues with one person in my time in this sport/hobby, and it all stemmed from him taking something I said as an attack when it was never intended that way. Then it all got REALLY blown out of proportion. I appreciate your ability to realize we've never met, and reserve your opinion till we do. It's something that's all too often forgot. And BTW, I'm also one of those pushy players that likes to help, rather than sit around... :)
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Re: * Friendly Fire on Saturday - A Case Study for Uniforms

Postby Tankwitch » Thu Jun 04, 2015 12:35 pm

I'm one of those pushy players as well. I see a need for moderation. The number of posters on AP has shrunk dramatically and at times it is an echo chamber. Which can annoy me, pluralism of ideas is not a bad thing.

But uniform requirements for some but not all games is not really a bad idea. Just at times it can be taken to an extreme. Uniform requirements can limit role-play slash cosplay elements of airsoft. While I understand you may not want a space marine at your game, people should have more casual games where it should allowed or encouraged.

To me functionality trumps most everything when it comes picking an airsoft uniform. Camouflage works best at longer ranges and for our shorter range proper movement and concealment is more paramount.
I'm a major chairsofter, sorry about that.
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Re: * Friendly Fire on Saturday - A Case Study for Uniforms

Postby Rocksteady » Fri Jun 05, 2015 12:08 pm

Cruz FoxHound wrote:Screw it all -- SHIRTS vs. PANTS








No one wants to see that....
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