Just what is mil-sim?

[Tankwitch]

I've had this question burning on a back burner in my mind for awhile now.
Just what is mil-sim?

What I have gathered it seems to involve these things:
1. Gear that falls into the category "Go fast."
1a. As much of this that you can get. You must wear as much of this as possible at one time.
2. Buying as much as you can in multicam pattern.
2a. Complaining about the cost of multicam pattern.
3. Using the above gear to cosplay at games.
3a. Complaining that other people at that game are using a slightly wrong variant of one thing or another.
Comment: I have seen posts dedicated to finding the correct leather belt. It was simply a leather belt, nothing all that special about it.
4. Going to games labeled mil-sim. Game must be either a cold war fantasy/ cleaned up Vietnam/ or "modern events."
4a. Later complaining about the quality of above game. Calling it glorified force on force. Further complaining that no one really showed up either.
6. Yelling at each other.
6a. As what I have gleamed this is due to that most airsoft teams and individual players do not regularly interact with long chains of command.

That is what I have gleamed about mil-sim. So if you can construct a more accurate construction of this rather non-descriptive term and game play style, I'd really like to know what it is.

[Tankwitch]

It seems that you have taken offense, that I did not mean. That is simply what I have learned about it. I have simply recalled what I seen from various posts on this and other websites. I am telling you what I have gathered in my experiences and wish for my ignorance to transformed into enlightenment. For that is the basis of learning and I wish to learn.

[Catch22]

I think you're post is more about gearhwores, and not about milsim.

[McNair]

If you want to know, go to a "mil-sim" game, such as one of BSP's or MSW's. Read posts about those instead of whatever crap you've been reading.

Everyone has their own opinion of what it is. However, experiencing a quality game that has earned the title of milsim will tell you what it is.

[Tankwitch]

If a game can be called Mil-sim, then it has to have agreed upon standards to make that game mil-sim.
I am simply trying to find out what those are.

[Tankwitch]

If a game can be called Mil-sim, then it has to have agreed upon standards to make that game mil-sim.
I am simply trying to find out what those are.

Edit: I'm asking because people seem to take it so seriously. If it serious, then it must seriously studied.

Edit, edit: oops double post.

[Catch22]

Past discussion.
http://airsoftpacific.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=27343&hilit=milsim&sid=d119e06338dc34c217cb2aeaf248d953

[Matt]

I'd categorize an event as "mil-sim" if it has;

1) Established sides with uniform requirements.
2) Established chain of command

That doesn't necessarily mean you have to emulate a military unit perfectly. It has absolutely nothing to do with the gear itself, the uniformity and the structure make it milsim. So if you made up a fictitious country who's military fights in MC Hammer Pants and Wife Beaters, as long as everyone is wearing those it's "mil-sim," at least as far as that fictitious country is concerned.

An event coordinator may dictate what the sides on the conflict should be, in which case the participants should load-out accordingly.

[Orwell]

Milsim can be a lot of things. It's like asking, "What's race-car driving?" You could be doing autocross, NASCAR, F1... the core elements are there. There must be cars. They must be fast. They're driven by a skilled driver with the goal of being faster than everyone else. In the same way, you could call the CQB competitions Milsim, potentially. You could call Lionclaws and its sister games Milsim. There's the BSP stuff. You could practice milsim tactics with your squad during a skirmish.

My .02.

[Darius137]

MILSIM simulates what the military does. It is not about the specifics of uniforms as much as uniformity.

A true MILSIM game would have a briefing, a chain of command, a mission with clear cut objectives and planning put into it, and desired outcomes.

There are probably a lot of levels of milsim, and at the higher levels, you have games lasting through traditional break periods (IE 24 hour games), complex medic and respawn rules, and specialized tasks so that only specific members of groups or specific groups are doing things.

At the lower end of milsim, you have a mission given and just roll with it, wear some specific uniform guidelines per side, and have a chain of command.

If you're worried about uniformity and uniforms, it is closer to cosplay. If you're worried about copying specific events or groups in real militaries, you are somewhere between cosplay and reenactment.

[Tankwitch]

Milsim can be a lot of things. It's like asking, "What's race-car driving?" You could be doing autocross, NASCAR, F1... the core elements are there. There must be cars. They must be fast. They're driven by a skilled driver with the goal of being faster than everyone else. In the same way, you could call the CQB competitions Milsim, potentially. You could call Lionclaws and its sister games Milsim. There's the BSP stuff. You could practice milsim tactics with your squad during a skirmish.

My .02.

You seem to be missing the forest for the trees. Your examples are nothing than mutations around a common theme. You even admit that. I am trying to find out what the core elements are to a game that makes it mil-sim. These core elements is what I am seeking as I have yet to see a working definition.

Edit: I looked over the entire thread that was provided. The entire thing was for the most part about BBs per mag. The thing that everyone agreed upon was that high caps are not mil-sim.

[Darius137]

Milsim can be a lot of things. It's like asking, "What's race-car driving?" You could be doing autocross, NASCAR, F1... the core elements are there. There must be cars. They must be fast. They're driven by a skilled driver with the goal of being faster than everyone else. In the same way, you could call the CQB competitions Milsim, potentially. You could call Lionclaws and its sister games Milsim. There's the BSP stuff. You could practice milsim tactics with your squad during a skirmish.

My .02.

You seem to be missing the forest for the trees. Your examples are nothing than mutations around a common theme. You even admit that. I am trying to find out what the core elements are to a game that makes it mil-sim. These core elements is what I am seeking as I have yet to see a working definition.

New post while posting this one: I would so go to a game with a faction of anime fox sluts. GO TEAM HORO!

Edit: I looked over the entire thread that was provided. The entire thing was for the most part about BBs per mag. The thing that everyone agreed upon was that high caps are not mil-sim.

You mentioned the cost of Multicam, which is another tree in the forest.

[Matt]

I'd categorize an event as "mil-sim" if it has;

1) Established sides with uniform requirements.
2) Established chain of command

I disagree. Strongly.

These two elements haven't made Splat Action or Sniperz Den games MilSim at all, because you're not simulating anything. It's just two sides smashing in to one another for four hours with no movement, no real objectives. It's like calling a sector control game "MilSim" because it's "green vs tan" and you have couple guys trying to rally people to take sectors.

I feel that event hosts that have said "Ok, you guys are all in Multicam, and this guy is in charge, OK IT'S MILSIM!" have ruined MilSim. Those games aren't MilSim, they're skirmishes with people wearing matching uniforms.

OK, I'd add 1 more item to the list.

3) Established objectives and orders.

[crazydemon]

So what we need then is a baseline set of rules. That will establish what the base requirements are to be a Mil-Sim game versus a Force on Force with Objectives. Then you can use said set of rules to judge whether or not a game will be Mil-Sim. So far I like what Matt and Darius have said.

Games that have:
Well Defined Chain of Command
Well Established Objectives/Goals
Planning by said Chain of Command to Complete the Objectives
Specific Roles for Each Team (Sappers, Snipers, Medics??)
Longer Periods of Play with no Breaks (Six to Eight Hours??)

If we have a base set of rules to follow, then as a community we can plan and prepare better games.

[Orwell]

If that's the route the community wants to take, then I think that "base set" of rules ought to be as hardcore MilSim as possible. That way, you can say "AP Standard MilSim rules with the following changes:", making people scale *down* the Sim aspect. This, over the idea of a bare-bones ruleset that will have to be scaled up, thereby reinitiating this conversation, on some level, at every event-planning meeting or forum.