Another E1 recall: P90

[Steve]

Does CyberGun have an exclusive licensing deal with FN? If so, that might make it harder for other AEG manufacturers to get trademark and trade dress licensing from the manufacturer. It's not like it is in the best interest of CyberGun to allow other airsoft manufacturers to sub-license when it means they are competing directly with CyberGun's products. Which pretty much limits the consumer to purchasing an unlicensed copy, or whatever POS cybergun puts out on the market. IIRC, the "Boycott CyberGun" campaign was basically because what they put out there was total trash.

Specific models of unique firearms (P-90, MP-5, etc.) are a little easier to litigate over than more generic weapons systems (like AKs, M-4s, etc.) because it is easy to distinguish a knockoff P-90, while it could be more difficult for someone to differentiate between, say, a Colt and a Bushmaster AR-15 if there were no trademarks. Anyone who wants to do "legit" M-4 copies just licenses them through one of any number of real-steel manufacturers (Stag Arms?!? Really? The guys who, prior to being a licensor for Airsoft for Echo 1, their unique business contribution was building ARs for left-handed shooters. Show me a factory airsoft left-handed M-4... Anybody? Bueler?).

[FishSlapRepublic]

This retarded arguement again?

Echo1 and JAG knew damn well that they were breaking the law when they imported and sold unlicensed copies of Cybergun's intellectual property, eg P90, SCAR, M249 and such. They knew damn well 2+ years ago when H&K and Glock made a big deal about trade dress. [url]You 'tards that defend clones and illegal (becasue that is what they are) copies[/url] are why big companies don't get into airsoft more: the client base does not give two fucks about the company or it's rights, they just want a [url]cheap copy of the company's product, and f**k the original manufacturer[/url].

Clone? I think I heard that phrase a while back. Yeah I remember its when this company called cybergun copied the Tokyo Marui gearbox and internal design and made into a cheaper "clone". Yeah I believe thats what they were actually called when you bought them off ebay and many online sites. Of course the name on the box was always "CM" plus some numbers but they where always known as clones.

You see CYMA where the ones that copied marui and sold the cheap piece of crap clone. While they legally have the right to do what they are doing I see no way you can think they have the moral right given how they got their start.

But hey believe what you want but when the time comes were if you want an AK47, M4 or any replica you only have one crappy option I'm going to point at all those you said "yeah thats ok" and continued to buy their sub-par products.

[Mtgriz]

This retarded arguement again?

Echo1 and JAG knew damn well that they were breaking the law when they imported and sold unlicensed copies of Cybergun's intellectual property, eg P90, SCAR, M249 and such. They knew damn well 2+ years ago when H&K and Glock made a big deal about trade dress. [url]You 'tards that defend clones and illegal (becasue that is what they are) copies[/url] are why big companies don't get into airsoft more: the client base does not give two fucks about the company or it's rights, they just want a [url]cheap copy of the company's product, and f**k the original manufacturer[/url].

Clone? I think I heard that phrase a while back. Yeah I remember its when this company called cybergun copied the Tokyo Marui gearbox and internal design and made into a cheaper "clone". Yeah I believe thats what they were actually called when you bought them off ebay and many online sites. Of course the name on the box was always "CM" plus some numbers but they where always known as clones.

You see CYMA where the ones that copied marui and sold the cheap piece of crap clone. While they legally have the right to do what they are doing I see no way you can think they have the moral right given how they got their start.

But hey believe what you want but when the time comes were if you want an AK47, M4 or any replica you only have one crappy option I'm going to point at all those you said "yeah thats ok" and continued to buy their sub-par products.

Congratulations, you completely missed the point and exposed your ignorance at the same time. Full points for effort.

Cybergun doesn't actually make anything, just like Echo1. Cybergun imports weapons produced by other companies. Sometimes, Cybergun even commisions a run of "custom" weapons from the factories. So that refutes your point about Cybergun copying Marui.

CYMA does copy the original TM design, as does every other airsoft gun manufacturer in the industry. Difference is that Marui does not hold a legal right to restrict the manufacture of said gearbox, nor does Marui have a trade dress/trade mark agreement with any company. Cybergun does have a legal right to restrict the use of any of the trademarks thay they have paid for. What you fail to give any credence to is the fact that Cybergun paid out big money to FN, H&K and others to be the sole international user of their weapons and trademarks. So when JAG and Echo1 order Scars and P90s and M249s and MP7s and MP5s, they do so with full knowledge that their suppliers are in violation of international copyright law. In effect, they are aiding Chinese criminals in taking money from legal international businesses.

And you want to complain about Cybergun building a hypothetical monopoly, right? Riddle me this: in the 5 years that Cybergun has been in business, how many businesses has Cybergun bankrupted? Please list them for me. Also, list a single gun that has been restricted to being sold only by Cybergun. I challenge you to do either of these.

In short, your entire arguement is invalid and mostly based on supposition and false facts. Please try harder next time.

[FishSlapRepublic]

Congratulations, you completely missed the point and exposed your ignorance at the same time. Full points for effort.

Cybergun doesn't actually make anything, just like Echo1. Cybergun imports weapons produced by other companies. Sometimes, Cybergun even commisions a run of "custom" weapons from the factories. So that refutes your point about Cybergun copying Marui.

Ok you got me there cybergun didn't copy Tokyo marui but CYMA did. Though CYMA and many other clone companies worked for cybergun, therefor benefiting off the coping of the marui products. Yes marui didn't file a patent on the gearboxes but the fact remains that they were copied.

CYMA does copy the original TM design, as does every other airsoft gun manufacturer in the industry. Difference is that Marui does not hold a legal right to restrict the manufacture of said gearbox, nor does Marui have a trade dress/trade mark agreement with any company.Cybergun does have a legal right to restrict the use of any of the trademarks thay they have paid for. What you fail to give any credence to is the fact that Cybergun paid out big money to FN, H&K and others to be the sole international user of their weapons and trademarks. So when JAG and Echo1 order Scars and P90s and M249s and MP7s and MP5s, they do so with full knowledge that their suppliers are in violation of international copyright law. In effect, they are aiding Chinese criminals in taking money from legal international businesses.

I am aware of the legality as I mentions I know if you read my post (here:"While they legally have the right to do what they are doing")you would know that. It is the morals I disagree with.

And you want to complain about Cybergun building a hypothetical monopoly, right? Riddle me this: in the 5 years that Cybergun has been in business, how many businesses has Cybergun bankrupted? Please list them for me. Also, list a single gun that has been restricted to being sold only by Cybergun. I challenge you to do either of these.

I never mentioned any monopoly simply that if you want gun A your only going to have one choice Could be cybergun, classic army whatever. my point is we will have a lot less selection and there will be a lot less incentive to make better products because why make a better one when your the only source for it?
Side note cybergun has been at for a lot longer than 5 years try 26 when they started in the UK it wasn't until around the 2000's that they had much of a presence in the USA but they have been at it for a while.
While I can not list any companies failing(wasn't part of my point anyway) restrictions of selling airsoft gun have been done all over the place. For one the topic we are in right now talking about how they are stopping E1 from selling FN based products. unless however it is just the trademarks but last I check E1 didn't have FN trademarks on their guns and that the guns likeness was trademarked stopping them from sell there look a likes.
I could however be wrong on that point as actually details are hard to come by. If anyone has the actually texts of the licensing that Cybergun holds that would be great to read.

To double clarify again yes Cybergun does have the legal right to do what they are doing. But it is my opinion that what they are doing is silly given they are using internals that were copied and they are hurting the hobby. But you don't have to take my word for it, if you took the liberty to read the thread titled "READ BEFORE YOU POST: Basic Forum Rules" you would find a link titled "Guide to AEGs/Electrics, Batteries, Mech Boxes" in which you will find a short bit on what they have done in the past.

[Mtgriz]

So your entire arguement is based on supposition, horseshit and misinformed opinion. Got it. Sprinkle in a bit more of that sweet grammar and punctuation and you could be an internet superstar one day!

Done arguing this. You're wrong, you've been proven wrong and you persist in forwarding your horseshit.

[Matt]

These days, it's less about a race to produce a replica that nobody else has - but more about securing the trademarks first. Cybergun is not the only company in the United States who can secure trademark contracts with firearms manufacturers. Competition is good in this industry, it keeps prices competitive. Some of these companies need to stop flying under the radar and start producing legally trademarked goods.

[Android]

Specific models of unique firearms (P-90, MP-5, etc.) are a little easier to litigate over than more generic weapons systems (like AKs, M-4s, etc.) because it is easy to distinguish a knockoff P-90, while it could be more difficult for someone to differentiate between, say, a Colt and a Bushmaster AR-15 if there were no trademarks. Anyone who wants to do "legit" M-4 copies just licenses them through one of any number of real-steel manufacturers (Stag Arms?!? Really? The guys who, prior to being a licensor for Airsoft for Echo 1, their unique business contribution was building ARs for left-handed shooters. Show me a factory airsoft left-handed M-4... Anybody? Bueler?).

I'd almost kill for an accurate lefty Stag M4... except realsteel Stags don't have lefty mag releases & fire selector switches.

[LiquidSnak]

Stag Arms does, IIRC have rifles with a left handed fire selector. However, the magazine release is still on the same side.

Unfortunately, cybergun isn't in it to provide us with well produced, licensed versions of firearms. They are here to provide us with crap still, and edge out anyone else who wants to build higher quality or guns of the same quality. They are about dominating the market.

Take a look at the history of Microsoft, you'll see that they get in trouble if they even come close to "edging out" competition.

[DJ]

I'd almost kill for an accurate lefty Stag M4... except realsteel Stags don't have lefty mag releases & fire selector switches.

One of many, this is a pretty easy fix.....
http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=9873 ... AG-RELEASE

[FishSlapRepublic]

So your entire arguement is based on supposition, horseshit and misinformed opinion. Got it. Sprinkle in a bit more of that sweet grammar and punctuation and you could be an internet superstar one day!

Done arguing this. You're wrong, you've been proven wrong and you persist in forwarding your horseshit.

Way to bring the debate to a new level of personal insults that are always so helpful in forwarding a discussion. Of course every one of your posts on this thread are filled with a judgmental insult or two so I guess I shouldn't be surprised. I do suggest that when you judge people's grammar you make sure yours is in in order as well as spelling. Though I guess I was asking for it posting on such little sleep.

Anyway this is how I like to sign off of debates like this insult free. Which is key when stepping away from these debates as insults will just cause more arguing when we have nothing left to argue about.

I believe our discussion has gone as far as it going to, as we keep talking past each other and missing each others points. I agree to disagree and hope that you can as well.

Good day.