Shocked Appaled and Sadden (KWA shot show attitude)

[Riddick]

I think you looking at this wrong. It's like saying that if you don't like Obama your a racist. Really a drastic over dramatization of the issue. There may be several issues the manufacturer has had that they don't feel the need to fill you in on. Legal issues, copy right stuff.

Saying they are bigots just because they wont ship guns to Kuwait is over the top.

I agree with these statements as this is how I viewed it as well.

[MarksInnerDemon]

I think you looking at this wrong. It's like saying that if you don't like Obama your a racist. Really a drastic over dramatization of the issue. There may be several issues the manufacturer has had that they don't feel the need to fill you in on. Legal issues, copy right stuff.

Saying they are bigots just because they wont ship guns to Kuwait is over the top.

1. Don't twist this into a political debate, over the president. I am not a supporter of either the presidential viewpoint, nor a card carrier of the ACLU, NAACP, or the KKK. This isn't a issue of race this is a issue of possible assumptions, and steryotyping.

2. No one directly called them a bigiot per say. The point was in general that NO OTHER COMPANY ASKED THIS.... Add to that there is no logical reason to beat around the bush on the subject unless you suspect a issue. There might be a supremely valid reason, and KWA apparently noticed the thread due to someone messageing them.

3. I said plainly to Rami that everyone who has been involved with KWA has been treated with respect and had a fair deal from what I have read. I recommend KWA because of there professional demeaner normally. That said again if this were a issue, maybe there are abusrdly high standards, or even a missunderstanding. Regardless why would other companies act differently to include US based and real Firearms dealers?

I am sure when I get KWA info that we will see a decent and well thought out reply,that may justify, or eplain away the issue. I however recommended them, and hell Rami didn't even seem phased other then he didn't want to deal with them. I however have dealt with eeryone from card carrying extremely christian haters of all other religions, so the "non-christian infidel" must die, to getting shot at by the muslim version. People don't recognize sometimes that not everyone is evil due to differnces, while others cling to hatered because of various reasons, hence why most of us have or have had warn a uniform.


Frankly m issue is the my support and then seeing something that I generally wouldn't agree with plain and simple. We shall see and I like to get the rest of the story from obth sides, because hell Rami might have walked in with a turban and I am suicide bomber airsoft vest for fun (he never would hes extremely professional around me), but I don't know all the details due to me not going to shot show with him.

We shall see, back to work.

[allizard]

I'm actually an active member on AP so it's not just happen to be someone e-mailing me on this thread. We already have a respond for you and Rami so I'll need your e-mail address so I can send you the letter.

[wurger]

Suggestion: get some CA X series guns, and use them until they wear out. Around that time, the new KWA guns might actually hit the stores. KWA is worse than software vendors announcing products then taking for freaking ever for the product to hit the street.

[MarksInnerDemon]

Suggestion: get some CA X series guns, and use them until they wear out. Around that time, the new KWA guns might actually hit the stores. KWA is worse than software vendors announcing products then taking for freaking ever for the product to hit the street.

I can agree with that, but honestly they have to have the best gas system I have seen so far, all be it I am more of a firearms tinkerer at them moment then a then a airsoft tinkerer. However I can tell you things like the M16A1 that was shipped out early had horrible problems and got soldiers in Vietnam killed, and really put a blemish on a rifle and system that has evolved into a great platform.

[renotheturk02]

I can agree with that, but honestly they have to have the best gas system I have seen so far, all be it I am more of a firearms tinkerer at them moment then a then a airsoft tinkerer. However I can tell you things like the M16A1 that was shipped out early had horrible problems and got soldiers in Vietnam killed, and really put a blemish on a rifle and system that has evolved into a great platform.

When people don't clean their rifles that's what happens. A close family friend never had a problem with his during his two tours there because he kept his clean. Most soldiers and Marines didn't know how to clean them properly until after they were fielded and had gotten a bad rep.

On topic: Sending replica weapons to a place where we are actively fighting (not Kuwait, but the middle east in general) isn't sensible. A good amount of our small arms were lost in Iraq alone, probably circulating around and being used to train foreign fighters in on our weapons. Plus it sounds like things are going to be settled now between KWA and your friend.

[TstclrCncr]

[

When people don't clean their rifles that's what happens. A close family friend never had a problem with his during his two tours there because he kept his clean. Most soldiers and Marines didn't know how to clean them properly until after they were fielded and had gotten a bad rep.

The rifle is still a piece of shit. I clean it with dental tools and oil it on a regular basis, and after two magazines in my rifle it's already backed up enough that chambering rounds requires the assist if it didn't already misfeed from a low magazine tolerance since it only has a single locking point. The 1/7 twist is good for the tracers we use, but not ideal for the main M855 62 grain bullets.

Overall I don't trust my life with this rifle, and the issues that still plague it. Most of the issues can be solved just by dropping a DI system in it.
I carried an M14 for awhile, and now there's a rifle I can trust my life and those around me with.

[MarksInnerDemon]

KWA sent us a letter and I will post it as soon as I get free time. I have worked around and with ITAR issues which you will read about, and I can understand why the issues. Frankly I think it could have been dealt with different.

The comment about cleaning is actually very wrong, and mis leading. That was the propaganda from the senior comissioned that had pushed the M16A1. They got brand new rifles, had them cleaned 3 times, then shot. Two magagazines were about the max the weapon could shoot before it failed. Multiple reasons were the cause from buffers, non-cromed barrel, ammo that orginally wasn't used for testing etc. Again this was a issue until late Vietnam, and today if you buy civilian weapons that act like that but the vast majority have gotten enough R&D to be very reliable.

Chivers - The Gun has a great historical review mid way through the book on the AR, withs it faults, fixes and the actual sense of why the military finally took the weapon. It removes about 99% of the lies and BS most people wrap around the AR, the 5.56 and why it was brought into use.


As for the replica weapon thing. The vast amount of pellet guns (which are probabl better trainers) really makes that argument very moot.

When people don't clean their rifles that's what happens. A close family friend never had a problem with his during his two tours there because he kept his clean. Most soldiers and Marines didn't know how to clean them properly until after they were fielded and had gotten a bad rep.

On topic: Sending replica weapons to a place where we are actively fighting (not Kuwait, but the middle east in general) isn't sensible. A good amount of our small arms were lost in Iraq alone, probably circulating around and being used to train foreign fighters in on our weapons. Plus it sounds like things are going to be settled now between KWA and your friend.

[Steve]

On-topic: Sounds like a bad customer service experience, and that sucks. Seems like you either get awesome or awful customer service when it comes to airsoft manufacturers, with nothing in between. Love to read the letter when you get it.

A little off topic: finally had my first problem with a KWA. The cylinder on my FPG cracked off. Good news is they actually have the parts supply support so that I can get a replacement for something like $30 or so from one of the local shops. I can deal with stuff randomly breaking, even after only three mags through it, as long as I can get replacement parts.

A bit off topic: The "customer service" and shitty quality control I had to deal with from WE is why I will never again buy their products. Actually, it was so bad that if I ever run anything related to airsoft as a business, I will not allow any of their products through the door, as merchandise or in the hands of a customer. Their products are disasterously unsafe, and then they aggressively blame the customer when something goes wrong.

Off-topic: Most of the 'Nam-era issues were in the M-16. The M-16A1 was the version that was released that un-f***ed the problems with the M-16. Closed bird-cage flash-hider, chrome-lined chamber, forward assist, among other fixes.

Source: discussion with an older-than-dirt CW-4 armorer, back in 1998 when my Guard unit still had M16A1's.

[MarksInnerDemon]

18571 E. GALE AVE. CITY OF INDUSTRY, CA 91748, U.S.A. | T: 626.581.1777 | F: 626.581.0777 | WWW.KWAUSA.COM
January 30, 2012
Dear Mark,
We are sorry to hear of your friend, Rami’s, disappointing experience with KWA at the recent
SHOT Show. KWA Performance Industries is an ethnically diverse company with a zero
tolerance policy against prejudice and racism. It saddens us to hear our overly cautious export
policy may have offended your friend. It was definitely not our intention and is contrary to our
corporate values. The questions asked during the meeting were not personal but necessary to
establish a clear understanding of each account applicant’s unique business. Without such
knowledge, we would not be able to determine if this partnership will be lawful or successful.
Please understand that KWA is different from other airsoft brands/manufactures. We are an
active supplier of training weapons to the US government. We operate under the strict guidelines
of The International Traffic in Arms Regulation ("ITAR," 22 CFR 120-130) and follow all
regulatory export laws set by the US State Department. Although not all of our products are
subject to ITAR regulations, we take the same precautionary measures to ensure full compliance
with the law. This is why foreign accounts operating in the more sensitive regions of the world
require additional screening and submission of certified credentials. (Business cards and web
sites do not meet the minimum requirements for export compliance.)
I hope we have addressed your concerns with this letter. Again, we sincerely apologize if we
have offended your friend. It was not our intention and we will be reviewing our standard
operating procedures for International Accounts to prevent future misunderstandings. Thank
you for bringing this to our attention.

Sincerely,
Peter C. Ching / CEO
KWA Performance Industries, Inc.

[MarksInnerDemon]

Ok so I wanted the letter out and about. Frankly I wasn't there for the conversation, and my banter on here was me venting. Also I can see how ITAR could apply to some things the reality is it probably doesn't hit most of what Rami was interested.

I suggest to KWI that instead of asking a bunch of questions state plainly that they are covering there rears, and work within ITAR from time to time. With that in mind questions will be asked that would be offensive to probably a christian born in Kuwait (they exsist here and have a church), but with such understanding I think people wouldn't be put off.

Also I will place while the Middle East is probably a more "sensetive" area, France could be added to that list due the Islamic riots a few years ago, or Britian etc. In the end I can understand the position, and franklyget the issues a bit, but research and some international calls might have been some great pre-planning ideas (hind sight and all this is a recommendation more then a accusation).

I am torn becuase KWA has had great service, and treated me well, but I think the attitude and flavor of things was less then steller. Although I have to admit for those who haven't lived/worked here in a non-military enviroment it is difficult to understand the culture and region. Very much like some of the philipino (sp) culture can be a bit odd as well.

I am going to let this stew a bit and see what cooks up, as I am less then pleased personally this might be the byproduct of most Americans not knowing a Suni, from Shiia, from a Kurd kinda issue.

I wanted to add this: As much of a issue as I have had with this little thing perrsonaly, and must admit KWA actually putting out a letter of reply from someone grousing on a forum really makes me appreciate them a great deal more then most other companies. I wont say to my friends not to buy from them, not sure how I feel still, but that is appreciated and should be noted.

[LiquidSnak]

Ok so I wanted the letter out and about. Frankly I wasn't there for the conversation...

I suggest to KWI that instead of asking a bunch of questions state plainly that they are covering there rears...

Is it not obvious that is what they were doing? You posted your first post, and I thought to myself, yeah, they're right to be cautious about overseas dealings.

With no firsthand knowledge of the conversation, you suggest how it could be different?

I'm sorry you are not pleased as peach with every dealing that occurs between other human beings and yourself, but if you are holding out for perfection, you'll be waiting a long long time.

[MarksInnerDemon]

Frankly because Rami has been decent, isn't at all easy to offend, and trust me on this most americans are far quicker to be judgmental, and I got it second hand. Just because I try to report accurately, and qualify my statments so there is no ambiguity doesn't make any of my statements invalid. Again I was the one that said to Rami to go talk to them, because my service and my experinces, and that of tons of others were so positive. Also if you have payed attention to anything but this post you would notice I am not one for perfection, in fact I never shoot high up, but I try to give the benifit of the doubt (which was noted in several previous posts.

The point originally was it was a poor way to go about things, and everyone from spartan imports to several US based REAL GUN COMPANIES who will be dealing with ITAR heavily didn't ask the questions the way KWA did. Now I am not sure if why you are lambasting me for my interperation, after I pointed out my reasons other then you seem to be ignoreing how I even gave KWA there due for responding and at least gave them a platform to respond, which I didn't have to. I also gave them credit for actually careing to respond to a post on a forum, which I found very gracious of them considering al lthe complainers online, or maybe Ineed to red that to to over emphesisze items that should be self evident. Hell I even added it afterwords because I almost forgot to say something.

So I will ask you this.... Do you think that it was obvious when no other firearms dealer, or airsoft company asked similar questions and were dealing with the same person? It makes no sense other then KWA was overly worried, which would be fine, but being upfront would have cleared up the issues, instead of beating around the bush on the subject which seemed to be the infrance I was given.

Again KWA thank you for responding and giving a damn about one guy on a forum, it is appreciated and I think well above and beyond the call of duty, even if I don't think what happened was steller.

Ok so I wanted the letter out and about. Frankly I wasn't there for the conversation...

I suggest to KWI that instead of asking a bunch of questions state plainly that they are covering there rears...

Is it not obvious that is what they were doing? You posted your first post, and I thought to myself, yeah, they're right to be cautious about overseas dealings.

With no firsthand knowledge of the conversation, you suggest how it could be different?

I'm sorry you are not pleased as peach with every dealing that occurs between other human beings and yourself, but if you are holding out for perfection, you'll be waiting a long long time.[/quote]