No Shows - The Great Debate

[Unconventional]

It's very odd in Oregon, but people here expect a lot and hate paying for attendance.

Also, because the costs have to be so low, the small details of games are usually cut out or done very poorly, so it feels like a cheap "Op".

I think to have a prepay, the game will have to step up and make some improvements.

No Shows are definitely a problem. If you have a prepay and lose half your attendees, that's fine, because smaller games with better players are more fun in my opinion and will keep the quality up.

There's a line though. There's the events that are worth prepay and are worth paying the money for, and there's the events that are just about bringing high numbers so the event promoters can make a buck. Those events are crappy because the promoters make them crappy. They don't care about quality. Their only concern is making money and they will cut corners anywhere possible.

I do think the market in this region is shot because the average player here has so many options for games. There's literally an "OP" every month, sometimes two a month. The market is watered down, so the players know they can be picky or flippant when attending. Back in the old days (haha) there was only an Op every two or three months and if you missed it, there wouldn't be another one for a while. Sure there were skirmishes, but OPs were semi-rare. That's not the case anymore.

The even promoters have cultivated the current market that they operate in, and they have nobody to blame but themselves. Black Sierra is partially to blame. We did some pretty good events for dirt cheap prices, so the NW airsofters are spoiled. They expect good quality for low cost. It is what it is.

Same problem down here. It's sad to see it the way it currently is.

[Switchback]

Use your real name. Check ids. Simple.

+1. If you're too young to have DMV ID, tough.

(Spoken like a true 15 y/o who has a permit)

[McNair]

Use your real name. Check ids. Simple.

+1. If you're too young to have DMV ID, tough.

(Spoken like a true 15 y/o who has a permit)

My first ID I got was so I could attend a game in Washington. It's not hard.
High School kids have school IDs as well.

[Rico]

People should be held accountable if they commit to paying for an event and are taking a place where someone else may want to register. We got super hosed on CQC5 because of that.

As for skirmishes, no way. That's bull shit.

[Gator]

I totally agree on everything, except for the age part. I believe that people like me, and vega. being in the age group of 13/14, Should be able to still come and play. I show up to events, Ive never flaked, Although ive only been to three OP's. So i was thinking that the Age limit should only effect people who are new to OP's.
Me being 14 and i know how events work, And knowing whats right and wrong at fields, Generally just knowing how it works. I think there should be a little exception. But thats up to you rick.

[Reese]

To think that having the expectation of someone who signed up for an event and then decided to not go and us expecting them to post they are no longer attending - that in itself is asking to much from someone? really!

The public posting of the no show list is only to reinforce to let us know if you are not attending.

I asked for a long time without any real difference. Once I said I would start keeping track and posting it, all of a sudden I got a large response.

I do not enjoy doing it but just asking doesn't seem to help.

If you are a flake, you are a customer I don't want. Society out there will cuddle you and it sounds like others here as well. I won't. I shouldn't have to.

What I posted in the main thread is just a proposal. Nothing is set in stone. I personally do not want to go the PREPAY route but it is something I have considered.

I believe in the no show list. I will continue to use it. You don't like it or don't ever want to be included on it then all I ask if that you let me know you can't make it to the game BEFORE the game happens. That's it. It's that simple.

AP is a continuum of NOTHING EVER CHANGES. I take what I do seriously and do what I think serves in the best interest of what I provide.

I whole heartedly appreciate the players that support me more than they know. This is how I earn income for my household. It's not FUN MONEY like it is for others. So it is not in my interest to provide policies to prevent a continuing relationship but just asking has seem not to help and I believe a change was necessary. I hope you can respect this.

This is something you need to do as a business man, not as a community. If you want to keep a list and suspend people from your events, so be it. We have seen many examples over the years of the community trying to police itself, only to have it rebuffed and blown off. There's no governing body here and that's how many people like it. It's democracy at its truest form. Mob rule.

If you want to try to really control the community, make some kind of collective bargaining agreement between the other event promoters. We've tried governing through teams, which didn't work, but we've never seen the event promoters get together and attempt to set guidelines. Might work? Right now there's no honor among thieves. Promoters will step on each other to schedule an event and there's a lot of competition the best dates and fields. Maybe if there was some kind of business association there would be more uniformity? *shrugs*

[Junto]

Priorities. Airsoft is one of the highest priorities on my weekends. If friends ask if I wanna do whatever on the weekend that a game is planned I say that I am busy. If something does come up that is more important than airsoft it takes very little effort to post saying that something came up and I have to bail. Not a big deal.

This. I rarely drop from a game.

[Highlife]

Maybe the way to do it is to only require pre-pay from people on the flake list. Don't count +1's on the rosters and don't place those on the flake list on the rosters till they have payed. This might keep the numbers from getting inflated and give the comanders a more accurate idea of their resources. If a flake does pay and is a no show, I say a no refund policy is reasonable.

[Matt]

We're also going to have an automated RSVP system here soon, where you can RSVP from the main thread post and then change your answer later. It should be easy to include an email notification saying "You signed up for Y game on X date, saying that you are ATTENDING, please update your RSVP status if anything has changed." ... Or something along those lines. That might at least remind some of the forgetful folks.

I see this as a problem of infrastructure. We can make this process easier on event promoters by redesigning the system.

[Sir Stubby Eyre]

Promoters will step on each other to schedule an event and there's a lot of competition the best dates and fields. Maybe if there was some kind of business association there would be more uniformity? *shrugs*

I like the idea of a Host Association. It would certainly help in planning some of the games around others. If we had a Host Association would the other promoters join it? List your support or PM me and let me know if it's worth pursuing or if I'm just tilting at windmills here.

[Ivan Daylovich™]

There is an event host forum. You could use that to plan dates.

[Reese]

Promoters will step on each other to schedule an event and there's a lot of competition the best dates and fields. Maybe if there was some kind of business association there would be more uniformity? *shrugs*

I like the idea of a Host Association. It would certainly help in planning some of the games around others. If we had a Host Association would the other promoters join it? List your support or PM me and let me know if it's worth pursuing or if I'm just tilting at windmills here.

It's possible. I think there will always be people who don't care about other events or stepping on people's toes, but it might be nice if there was some kind of agreement in place between planners that they will follow XXX rules for their events and will agree to follow XXX suspensions if someone steps out of line at another event planners OP.

This community has tried to regulate events through a league of sorts, but that didn't work because event planners didn't want to have someone else telling them how to run their events. That would be the biggest obstacle standing in the way.

Some issues that I think need resolving:

*Minimum age to play

*No shows

*The over-saturation of the market

Some issues that I think could benefit from discussion:

*How to improve the overall gameplay in the NW

*FPS limits

*Finding new fields/improving old ones

[Zeta Crossfire]

Use your real name. Check ids. Simple.

^Yes


Also I don't like the idea of blanketing punishing people who don't show at last minute, I believe it should be on a case by case basis.

I can't remember the op, but last yer I had to drop from it because that morning my great-grandmother fell, broke her arm, and I went to the hospital.

I couldn't of planned for a situation like that. hell, I got the call at 8 AM right when I was about to leave for the game, it was just bad timing. A case by case seems best.

[MillerSA15]

Use your real name. Check ids. Simple.

^Yes


Also I don't like the idea of blanketing punishing people who don't show at last minute, I believe it should be on a case by case basis.

I can't remember the op, but last yer I had to drop from it because that morning my great-grandmother fell, broke her arm, and I went to the hospital.

I couldn't of planned for a situation like that. hell, I got the call at 8 AM right when I was about to leave for the game, it was just bad timing. A case by case seems best.

I would say more like if someone has a good excuse like that their name is removed back off the list, and if they were already on the list and this time would have been the second strike (so they had a good reason to lie about the excuse) they have to have some kind of proof. This puts the burden to come forward and say "hey, sorry I didn't let you know I wasn't coming, here is why" onto the flaker, not the event organizer (as it should be).

[Riddick]

Again to be clear.

Nobody is being punished for not showing up.

People get punished for a no show / no notice with the no notice being the factor. If you decide to not come thats okay. It's your choice but by giving us a notice then we have a variable window of opportunity to alter things on a host perspective or the commanders of teams can make necessary changes.

However we all understand emergenices happen. In that case a simple PM would be nice at a convienant moment but if I get 15+ of them on a game I might call BS.

When I asked for over a year for people to let me know if they couldn't attend I had very little response.

When I started saying I would post the no notice players (aka flakes as they get referred to) then all of a sudden I started getting a huge response.

This all comes down to some things I like to call courtesy & respect. It's some very basic principles that any person should have that shouldn't be too much to ask from anyone.

I can run any game with any amount of people showing up however I gain some concern for my commanders on particular games when whole squads don't come or limited positions are taken by flakes. That sucks for those teams or the players that wanted them.

We're also going to have an automated RSVP system here soon, where you can RSVP from the main thread post and then change your answer later. It should be easy to include an email notification saying "You signed up for Y game on X date, saying that you are ATTENDING, please update your RSVP status if anything has changed." ... Or something along those lines. That might at least remind some of the forgetful folks.

I see this as a problem of infrastructure. We can make this process easier on event promoters by redesigning the system.

Sounds cool but it would be nice if we could have control of the game thread moderation as well. is that something possible?