No Shows - The Great Debate

[Riddick]

I like the support I am seeing from the community regarding the flakes / no shows at games. Looks like there is alot of us frustrated with the issue. So I decided to move the topic out of the LOW game thread into an area all on it's own to continue the discussion and leave out the ones that don't.

I think the issue extends beyond the events. I think it should include skirmishes. If we don't police our community, how do we get better? This problem has been one thats been bitched about for some time but no accountability has ever been tried until recently. I would like to see it continue with other event promoters besides myself so that we can focus on those that have a history of being accountable.

My proposal for myself next year is the following:

#1 - No Show List
Continue with the public no show list. 1st time no show / no notice is a warning. 2nd time you will not be allowed to sign up for games for one year from date of infraction. This isn't a ban from attending but you will not be apart of the planning stages and could impact your involvement in games which could lead to a possibility of not participating. However there is one way around this, PREPAY. Should a player that is on a ban select a prepay method then he or she can sign up for an event and be accounted for in all areas they are allowed for said event.

#2 - Commitment Notice
All dropouts will be required to notify us with 48hrs of the events. Anything less than that would be treated as a No Show. Again I understand that things come up however there is alot of last minute drops due to "things that come up" that could screw up the planning factor of games.

#3 - Age Limits
All games will become 15+. While the age issue is a seperate debate altogether since across the board we have issues from players with varying ages. However I figure High School age is the right area to start helping them with accountability and that where this kinda figures in.

Plus some of the events are turning into daycare with the 13/14 year old crowd and frankly I would like to see less of it due to ride issues / maturity onsite.

#4 - PREPAY with options
PrePay will become the event price and the day of price will be $10 higher. With me now having a brick n mortar retail establishment people can come by and pay in person with cash, credit card or money order. Players can call in the credit card payments over the phone. I also have paypal. I will even have an mail in money order option. So there will be several ways to pay that will help you avoid that additional $10 fee.

PrePay will come in a few variations that the players can choose.

Option #1 $10 NON-REFUNDABLE Deposit with remainder paid before or at the event using any of the payment options described above. The deposit locks you into the prepay price irregardless. (only full payments will be refunded up to 48 hours before event)

Option #2 Full event fee paid using any of the payment options described above (this option refunded up to 48hrs before event)

Again these rules are not to punish anyone. This is created to highten the experiance for those attending since they are the ones I should be concerned with. Players that are not attending due to their cancellations are not and will not be invested in these events, so why are we catering in some ways to them but not having established guidelines to protect those that are attending.

Like I said before this is not about money. This is about respect and courtesy to the players and myself that are involved in making these games what they are. Without all the participants I don't have a game, so this goes beyond me.

Feel free to speak up about YOUR OWN IDEAS. You will never get anywhere if you just dont step up and do it. Leaving it for everyone else to come up with a unanimous idea that works will never happen. Too many opinions out there.

[McNair]

I don't know how or why this could/would apply to skirmishes(which are generally free)being that they are pick up games. People really don't depend on everyone that committed unless you're a tard that feels they can only play if 100 people are going to be there.


I think it is about money, too, and I don't mean that in a negative way. First, it's about the participants who spend their money to go to an event and make plans on the assumption those who said they're coming are there. When these people flake, it ruins the experience for everyone(who all spent money for the experience). Also as an event promoter, it hurts you financially as well. Either by the money invested in the game on the basis of the amount of people who claim they'll be in attendance; also for future games as this may effect game play and leave the event in a bad light, possibly affecting attendance in the future.

[Riddick]

I don't know how or why this could/would apply to skirmishes(which are generally free)being that they are pick up games. People really don't depend on everyone that committed unless you're a tard that feels they can only play if 100 people are going to be there.


I think it is about money, too, and I don't mean that in a negative way. First, it's about the participants who spend their money to go to an event and make plans on the assumption those who said they're coming are there. When these people flake, it ruins the experience for everyone(who all spent money for the experience). Also as an event promoter, it hurts you financially as well. Either by the money invested in the game on the basis of the amount of people who claim they'll be in attendance; also for future games as this may effect game play and leave the event in a bad light, possibly affecting attendance in the future.

Josh I currently don't host skirms so that area does not apply to me. However I would keep track of the no shows still. Why not address this entirely? Someone is still taking the time somewhere to plan and organize. Players might want to have the assurance that if people say they are going that they will be there. I did show it to a 3 player skirm once. It sucked horribly.
That's where I was going with it even if not properly worded.

and I guess you are right about the finances. However all the areas you addressed should be a concern, just the idea isnt based around how I can make more (so to speak)

These actually sound pretty good, especially the prepay idea. Making all entry fees prepay and not allowing on the field paying would probably cut down even more on no shows, but of course that's not a viable option as many people don't have Paypal.

But people do have debit cards and a stamp and envelope for money orders (hopefully)
If someone didnt have paypal and felt comfortable about calling their card in, that is a possibility (one that I am not greatly found of)

People could also pre-pay at games or other events if possible. I do play

[Cyph34r]

Definitely liking 1, 2, and 4, and I definitely understand the reasoning behind number three on that list.

We've been working on figuring out a system to deal with no-shows for Opforthewin paid events, and most of the suggestions have run along these lines.

[Sir Stubby Eyre]

Definitely liking 1, 2, and 4, and I definitely understand the reasoning behind number three on that list.

I like the idea, I will discuss it with my 2nd in command and we will get back to this thread.

Here are some thoughts:

If there is a player that has a high standing with our field or you he could be exempt from the higher price deal. This would have to be done on a individual basis and noted on our/your data base.

Another one would be a membership. If they pay a membership this could be applied to game fees (basically it would prepay for a few games). This could get them on the "High standing list."

I think the age limit should be based on "per game" occurrence. Some games are great for all ages, some should be only for the older group. (don't know what the age group cutoff should be).

I agree about including no shows for skirmishes. This problem extends beyond operations.

I will be watching this thread and applying some if not all the ideas for Camp R&R.

[Matt]

I'd like to start doing pre-registration for all of the larger OPs I host in the future. A payment or a deposit may be required to secure your spot. If the registration process actually involves more than replying and saying, "I will be there," folks may be reluctant to sign up unless they really plan on attending. Plus it helps keep better records for who will be there. I understand that some people don't get on the website - but that's not my problem. If you want to attend a Lion Claws event for example, you have to register. Whether you are Bob's plus 1's uncle or whatever - you gotta go sign yourself up. If you can't even do that, then we don't need you at the game.

Some folks may think pre-reg would hurt numbers, but in reality, it is what it is. Those folks who are on the fence were more likely to not attend anyway. You couldn't count on them in the first place, but you just didn't know it.

I'd never do a no show list for a skirmish. They're generally open invite pickup games, like Mcnair said. The point of those is to show up and play if you can, if you can't, oh well. I can understand if you are running a business and you rely on some of that cash flow - but I don't see a reason to be strict about it with free skirmishes.

[Junto]

The only problem with pre-registration is that some attendees will want to sign up but won't be able to. Sometimes I don't have the money to go to a game until the week or day of the game. I have no bank account and no Pay Pal either. What pre-registration options are there for the cash-in-hand airsofter?

I like the no show list for big games and I suppose if someone hosted a skirm and wanted to make a list, they could as well. It's funny/infuriating how often the same players won't make games, even on a team level, and I'd be really interested to see how things turn out on this front.

[Cyph34r]

In operating as opforthewin, we're only planning to REQUIRE prepay for certain events, and have it as an option for most of our stuff. We would also make exceptions for people who have established a record of attending games they sign up for, on a case-by-case basis.

In terms of building a no-show list from skirmishes, you have the issue of people not tending to CARE as much about skirmishes, so someone who'd never flake from an OP without a really good reason might decide the morning of a skirm that they'd rather sleep in.

[Switchback]

Looks great to me.
I'm looking forward to events with these criteria in the future.

[Manicotti Airsoft]

Manicotti Airsoft has always offered a lower cost prepay option
few people choose to pay double the cost at game day. some do.
airsoft guns are to be sold only to 18+ players, AONW, ASGI, AEX, EVIKE all have that requirement on their terms of service page. so why are we catering to those under the age of 18?

[Jason Bourne]

Manicotti Airsoft has always offered a lower cost prepay option
few people choose to pay double the cost at game day. some do.
airsoft guns are to be sold only to 18+ players, AONW, ASGI, AEX, EVIKE all have that requirement on their terms of service page. so why are we catering to those under the age of 18?

I am 17 right now, but I will be 18 in March... so I am not saying this because I am underage.

I don't know that including players should be considered "catering" to other players. It is simply an inclusion of other players. I understand that there are whimps/kids who are younger and are no fun to play with, but I don't think that means we should just label everyone under 18 as immature. Just because you are a certain age does not mean you are at a certain level of maturity. I know several guys who are all younger than me, but are plenty mature. They ALL take their hits and wouldn't flake on a game etc...

Just a thought...


Riddick, I LOVE the idea of prepay. I think all your ideas are great. I personally would probably not be inclined to join a skirmish, so I don't know about a no-show list for those.
It sure was disappointing when I showed up for LOW IV, got my friend to go, planned and readied my/our gear to find out the game was way smaller than advertised. Also, it definitely reflects poorly on the game organizer for them to advertise a 230 man event and only have 150 or so show up. I still thought the game was great Riddick and I am definitely coming again if it is on a Friday/Saturday.

[Payback]

I have yet to come/sign up for any larger game yet. But the thing i found truly amazing as i sit and troll this sight, is seeing people sign up for these events the day they are posted, sometimes nearly 2 months in advance. The events that i have gone to, even the free skirms, i wait till the week of to sign up for them. I just can't see how people can look 2 months out and know for a fact that nothing will come up the week or two before that makes them not be able to come. Sure, a few can, but obviously 50 or more each game can't.

Pre-pay is a great option, paypal is good too, am i wrong but isn't there a guest paypal option for those without paypal? I've used it for Ebay purchases before.

For Riddicks games, now that you have a store, maybe you could also do a game card like you have for your store discount. We could buy a game card for $xxx and that would give us a discount on games, market place items, and registration. Those with a card could register for the pre-pay price, but pay at the field when they show? If they are a no show, they suffer some consequence of no discounts, or something.

[CommieHunter]

I think that skirmishes probably don't need quite as much attention as OPs, but I see pretty much everything Riddick posted as reasonable.

[TstclrCncr]

I like the the list, but the only thing that seems harsh is a one year suspension. I could see a 3 month or 6 month. Also, what's to keep them from making another account to get around the suspension?

[Riddick]

I like the the list, but the only thing that seems harsh is a one year suspension. I could see a 3 month or 6 month. Also, what's to keep them from making another account to get around the suspension?

The ability to RSVP for an event I don't see as the big punishment per say. I think it's being publicly outed is more embarrasing especially when players are complaining about no shows and you happen to be one of them.

Nothing I can do about changing callsigns. However I can always ask for an ip check on someone I suspicion.

The goal here is to not have a single no show at events. It takes seconds to post you are not coming. By making a big community involvement to push this, I can see more people doing whats right in the future.

The only problem with pre-registration is that some attendees will want to sign up but won't be able to. Sometimes I don't have the money to go to a game until the week or day of the game. I have no bank account and no Pay Pal either. What pre-registration options are there for the cash-in-hand airsofter?

Like I said you can come by my store or you can mail a money order in to the address I supply. USPS First class mail only takes one day delivery in most of Oregon.

Pre-pay is a great option, paypal is good too, am i wrong but isn't there a guest paypal option for those without paypal? I've used it for Ebay purchases before.

For Riddicks games, now that you have a store, maybe you could also do a game card like you have for your store discount. We could buy a game card for $xxx and that would give us a discount on games, market place items, and registration. Those with a card could register for the pre-pay price, but pay at the field when they show? If they are a no show, they suffer some consequence of no discounts, or something.

Yeah that's a good idea. Basically what you are saying is gift certificates but in the form of a gift card per say. I could do that and it would be another way to pay.

and paypal does say you can pay without an account.