Paintball industry basically chucks airsoft under the bus...

Discuss anything and everything here that's Airsoft related.

Postby MitchD » Thu Jun 16, 2011 8:54 pm

Matt wrote:The RAP4 style markers don't look any less like guns from a distance. No cop is going to look at it and say, "Oh wait, that's 10mm, in that case I won't shoot this guy."


People have gotten shot for having stuff like a stick in their hand, a candy bar, a squirt gun wrapped in electrical tape, etc....

I guess I am not getting my point across. Law and politics have very little to do with that is fair. And unfair or not, nothing will get changed unless the industry gets together and tries to protects itself.

I think another tragedy is that California is basically bankrupt, yet this is the type of useless regulation their politicians are putting their time into. It does matter who you vote for.
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Postby LettuceHead » Thu Jun 16, 2011 8:56 pm

Here lies the main difference, one that I keep bringing up but no ones seems to pay heed to... paintball markers are a Sporting Good and airsoft replicas are a Toy under the Harmonized Tariff Code for international trade purposes. They're cheaper to import that way, and its the biggest mistake airsoft has going for it legally.

Paintball positioned itself legally as a Sporting Good category a long time ago and it was the smartest move they ever did. They quickly learned that the best way to avoid or get out of anti-gun or anti-toy gun legislation is to have nothing to do with the toy gun or firearm industries!

Is it hypocritical? It can be construed as such... but it was also well thought out in advance.
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Postby code789 » Thu Jun 16, 2011 10:12 pm

LettuceHead wrote:Here lies the main difference, one that I keep bringing up but no ones seems to pay heed to... paintball markers are a Sporting Good and airsoft replicas are a Toy under the Harmonized Tariff Code for international trade purposes. They're cheaper to import that way, and its the biggest mistake airsoft has going for it legally.

Paintball positioned itself legally as a Sporting Good category a long time ago and it was the smartest move they ever did. They quickly learned that the best way to avoid or get out of anti-gun or anti-toy gun legislation is to have nothing to do with the toy gun or firearm industries!

Is it hypocritical? It can be construed as such... but it was also well thought out in advance.


back in 2009 de leon passed AB962, de leon is one of the known people who appose any form of guns in the US(or with in CA). passing the bill is going to restrict the guns being sold in the state of CA according to the NRA and i agree with that.

not to offend anyone but i am very disappointed that paintballers keep bring up is that their guns dont deserve to be in SB798

airsoft and paintball are just sports
the the constitution which includes the 2nd amendment is a protector of our rights

paintball retailers who turned around to support SB798 are the ones violating our rights.
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Postby LettuceHead » Thu Jun 16, 2011 10:40 pm

code789 wrote:back in 2009 de leon passed AB962, de leon is one of the known people who appose any form of guns in the US(or with in CA). passing the bill is going to restrict the guns being sold in the state of CA according to the NRA and i agree with that.

not to offend anyone but i am very disappointed that paintballers keep bring up is that their guns dont deserve to be in SB798

airsoft and paintball are just sports
the the constitution which includes the 2nd amendment is a protector of our rights

paintball retailers who turned around to support SB798 are the ones violating our rights.


Are you seriously saying that airsoft replicas and paintball markers are or should be protected by the 2nd Amendment ?!?

*facepalm*

Don't get me wrong, I'd like to see SB798 fail as well for airsoft's sake, but the defense being put up by the airsoft industry is simply retarded. Not all paintball retailers in CA that I know support SB798 either, as I know many who do side business in airsoft as well.
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Postby code789 » Thu Jun 16, 2011 11:01 pm

LettuceHead wrote:
code789 wrote:
LettuceHead wrote:Here lies the main difference, one that I keep bringing up but no ones seems to pay heed to... paintball markers are a Sporting Good and airsoft replicas are a Toy under the Harmonized Tariff Code for international trade purposes. They're cheaper to import that way, and its the biggest mistake airsoft has going for it legally.

Paintball positioned itself legally as a Sporting Good category a long time ago and it was the smartest move they ever did. They quickly learned that the best way to avoid or get out of anti-gun or anti-toy gun legislation is to have nothing to do with the toy gun or firearm industries!

Is it hypocritical? It can be construed as such... but it was also well thought out in advance.


back in 2009 de leon passed AB962, de leon is one of the known people who appose any form of guns in the US(or with in CA). passing the bill is going to restrict the guns being sold in the state of CA according to the NRA and i agree with that.

not to offend anyone but i am very disappointed that paintballers keep bring up is that their guns dont deserve to be in SB798

airsoft and paintball are just sports
the the constitution which includes the 2nd amendment is a protector of our rights

paintball retailers who turned around to support SB798 are the ones violating our rights.


Are you seriously saying that airsoft replicas and paintball markers are or should be protected by the 2nd Amendment ?!?

*facepalm*

Don't get me wrong, I'd like to see SB798 fail as well for airsoft's sake, but the defense being put up by the airsoft industry is simply retarded.


i'm saying that SB798 is de leon's move to remove part of the 2nd amendment.

it just a dirty move called "nos decipiat" loosely translated from latin means "we cheat"

paintball and airsoft are not his concerns. de leon would never strike a deal with paintball retailers when WAGV and other anti gun organizations have never had a good relations with paintball in the first place unless there was something more to this bill.
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Postby Ivan Daylovich™ » Thu Jun 16, 2011 11:19 pm

Yeah, that one didn't hold up, eh?
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Postby code789 » Thu Jun 16, 2011 11:32 pm

KA-BAR wrote:the 2nd amendment doenst give ANYONE rights.

the 2nd amendment PREVENTS the government/congress from passing ANY LAW that infringes on the right to bear arms.


rights: are the fundamental normative rules about what is allowed of people or owed to people, according to some legal system, social convention, or ethical theory.

pretty much the same thing k-bar but i like your definition better it address the situation better
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Postby Tanto » Thu Jun 16, 2011 11:33 pm

KA-BAR wrote:the 2nd amendment doenst give ANYONE rights.

the 2nd amendment PREVENTS the government/congress from passing ANY LAW that infringes on the right to bear arms.


"We hold these truths to be self-evident... Endowed by his creator with certain inalienable rights..."

We inherently have the rights. The constitution ensures the protection of them.
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Postby ZombieMan » Fri Jun 17, 2011 7:01 am

code789 wrote:
KA-BAR wrote:the 2nd amendment doenst give ANYONE rights.

the 2nd amendment PREVENTS the government/congress from passing ANY LAW that infringes on the right to bear arms.


rights: are the fundamental normative rules about what is allowed of people or owed to people, according to some legal system, social convention, or ethical theory.

pretty much the same thing k-bar but i like your definition better it address the situation better


Rights are more complicated than just that as there are concepts of active and passive rights. It is only a modern concept that rights were something that is owed to people. Rather, the more traditional concept of rights would be that they are something that a normal person is allowed to fight for. 300 years ago rights become something that a person was granted by god, a person of course being a rich white man. Interestingly rights are on a swing back from active to passive concepts in recent times.
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Postby Tanto » Fri Jun 17, 2011 3:27 pm

Nasty wrote:
Tanto wrote:"We hold these truths to be self-evident... Endowed by his creator with certain inalienable rights..."


Too bad that wasn't in the Constitution, but instead the Declaration of Independence, which was written well before the US Constitution.


I know, but it sums up the reason for the constitution.
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Postby Matt » Fri Jun 17, 2011 3:57 pm

LettuceHead wrote:Here lies the main difference, one that I keep bringing up but no ones seems to pay heed to... paintball markers are a Sporting Good and airsoft replicas are a Toy under the Harmonized Tariff Code for international trade purposes. They're cheaper to import that way, and its the biggest mistake airsoft has going for it legally.

Paintball positioned itself legally as a Sporting Good category a long time ago and it was the smartest move they ever did. They quickly learned that the best way to avoid or get out of anti-gun or anti-toy gun legislation is to have nothing to do with the toy gun or firearm industries!

Is it hypocritical? It can be construed as such... but it was also well thought out in advance.


This is not a viable option for Airsoft. Having "nothing to do" with the firearms industry does not bode well with an extremely realistic military simulation. If anything we should be part of the firearms industry. Hell, we're at Shot Show. Airsoft products are being used as training tools in different branches of the military and by law enforcement. We need to embrace that, and if it means Airsoft guns are more regulated like firearms then fine - we'll weed out a bunch of retards. The Big5 and tool's Sporting Goods Airsoft purchases are the problem here, not responsible players buying $400 full metal AEGs from Airsoft retailers.

I'm sure that retailers don't want to hear this, because that regulation probably means more cost increases for them, and in turn more cost increases to us. But seriously, marketing cheap AEGs to 12 year old kids and making your living that way is like polishing the brass on the Titanic. If they didn't see this coming, they are totally dense. The average cost of an AEG used to be $300. Getting started in Airsoft was a significant investment, and typically people didn't shazaam around.

Being an AEG owner should be more like being a gun owner. A gun purchase is generally more expensive and built to last (not like bleeding toys), and then you become a customer of the establishment who sold it to you. They make their money off repairs, upgrades, services, and accessories you buy for it.

Instead they keep pooping out cheap a$$ AEGs from China for 13 year old boys, and we wonder what the problem is. I would basically not mind completely cutting the balls off the low-end market all together. Because let's face it, if AEGs sales were banned in the US we would go right back to Redwolf and WGC to buy our Airsoft guns. Mainstream Airsoft in chain stores in the US isn't doing anything for us but getting bad press.
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Postby Falcon7 » Fri Jun 17, 2011 4:27 pm

Anybody else think if this bill passes it'll boost business around here for places like AONW? Yes? No?

Could mean better services for us at the cost of Californian airsofting =P
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Postby Junto » Fri Jun 17, 2011 5:41 pm

This is a situation where I hope the slippery slope argument really proves to be a fallacy. I'd hate for this state to catch on and nanny me out of my hobby.
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Postby icebullet » Fri Jun 17, 2011 5:58 pm

Falcon7 wrote:Anybody else think if this bill passes it'll boost business around here for places like AONW? Yes? No?

Could mean better services for us at the cost of Californian airsofting =P


I would say maybe. I would like to say that quite a few people around here can't make it out to AONW due to time constraints and such, so they have to buy out-of-state in order to get their guns and accessories.
Last edited by icebullet on Fri Jun 17, 2011 5:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Junto » Fri Jun 17, 2011 5:59 pm

Poebot wrote:
Falcon7 wrote:Anybody else think if this bill passes it'll boost business around here for places like AONW? Yes? No?

Could mean better services for us at the cost of Californian airsofting =P


I guess, but I would like to say that quite a few people can't make it out to AONW due to time constraints and such, so they have to buy out-of-state in order to get their guns and accessories.
That'd be why AONW has an online branch. ;)
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