AP safety/weapon rules

[Reese]

Just some insight from a guy who has been down this road before...

Training classes have poor attendance. BSP has offered a variety of classes, with varying levels of interest. Our Tactical Training Camps usually had decent numbers, and our handgun class had a few people, but our Ranger School flopped and we found that any classes that we offered usually had the same group of guys and once they had gone through the training, there wasn't much more interest.

Most people don't want to learn how to airsoft, they just want to show up and play. It's understandable.

In regards to FPS limits, I've never seen the need for higher FPS limits. 400 FPS for AEGs and 550 for sniper rifles has always been adequate, and I never saw any reason to mess with it. I think it's more important to educate the new guys on safety regs and basic knowledge. This should come from the teams, not the community imo. Teams should regulate themselves, educate their members, and newer players should be encouraged to join teams.

If anything, I think airsoft has changed for the worse because it has become more mainstream and you guys can't do the things that we were able to do seven to ten years ago. The gov won't let you guys put on free games on public land anymore. Gotta have insurance and permits. That's truly sad because some of the most fun games I ever went to were free and on public land.

[KA-BAR]

airsoft died about 4 years ago...we are just going through the motions until it dies completely.

[Matt]

This is ending how most of these threads do. The instigators are throwing their hands up and giving in because 100% of the replies here don't agree with them. Everybody has their own opinion. I guess now you know WHY we never upped the SAW FPS limit to 450. A great majority of the community doesn't want to.

If you think that means we aren't thinking outside the box and we're in the dark ages or something, well, that's just like your opinion man.

[KA-BAR]

where is the money lebowski?

['Skyhawk']

This is ending how most of these threads do. The instigators are throwing their hands up and giving in because 100% of the replies here don't agree with them. Everybody has their own opinion. I guess now you know WHY we never upped the SAW FPS limit to 450. A great majority of the community doesn't want to.

If you think that means we aren't thinking outside the box and we're in the dark ages or something, well, that's just like your opinion man.

Really? Then why is the poll not reflecting that sentiment? Looks like the majority of the people want change according to the poll.

[Matt]

Are you reading the same poll I am? Only 43% want to change it. 32% only agree with part of it, and based on the replies those people agree with the fact that long range safety kills are lame, but they don't want to change the velocity limits on a SAW. 24% are completely against any of it.

How is that a majority?

Yes, entirely. 43% [ 35 ]
Parts of it (explain) 32% [ 26 ]
No, not at all. 24% [ 20 ]

Besides, the poll is flawed anyway, it's asking if you agree with 2 entirely different initiatives. I myself brought up a proposal to bump SAWs to 450 at one point, but there's never enough of a majority supporting it to make it happen. If anything this poll tells me the community is still wary of FPS increases, but they want to find a better way to enforce or communicate safety kills.

['Skyhawk']

What I mean is:
43% Totally agree + 32% partially agree = 75% want some changes.
VS...........................................................24% want to keep it the same.

[xBEARx]

I just spent over an hour reading this entire thread.
We have the extremists and we have the polar opposite extremists.
I, personally, feel that nothing can be done over bickering over a topic that has come up multiple times before and has been shut down.
Because of people not being mature enough to go out and do something about the change they want to see and just sitting in their room typing out angry letters on a thread, the change is going to go nowhere.
If you want a change host your own damn game with a 40 and over age limit and a 750fps LMG gunner limit and a 15fps basic rifle limit.
But, I can guarantee you would get the same type of game that you do today.
Just because people are over a certain age limit does not mean that they are going to play fair and be uber mature. It all comes down to the actual maturity level of the people you are playing with and how much common sense they have to change problems.
Go ahead and bicker at each other for the next 6 months over what needed to be changed. SB798 is going to happen and we are all going to sit and watch and do nothing about it.
If I could I would be down in California right now actively opposing the bill by protesting and actually talking to the Senators who have the true say in the deciding of the bill.

[Mini-Marine]

I really like the concept of tiered FPS limits. There have already been a few games with higher limits for DMRs and lower limits for SMGs.

I honestly don't care if the change means an increase to the maximum FPS or a decrease for rifles, as long as there is some way of differentiating platforms.

with the amount of fire you can lay down with midcaps, support weapons really don't play that much of a role in airsoft these days.

Steve has a good work around with the setup he uses for his SAW, but it also requires constant maintenance to keep it running.

BTW, in a few more weeks I'll have weekends free instead of working 12 hour shifts and finally be able to come out to games again.

[VogonFord]

I really like the concept of tiered FPS limits. There have already been a few games with higher limits for DMRs and lower limits for SMGs.

I honestly don't care if the change means an increase to the maximum FPS or a decrease for rifles, as long as there is some way of differentiating platforms.

Then let that be individual game hosts to decide. They don't have to follow AP's velocity limits. For the standard for AP, though, the current velocity limits are fine and have been fine. KISS is a good idea to hold on to. The less there is to question, the less questions there will be.

[Mini-Marine]

Oh I totally understand that it is up to individual game hosts to decide, but the more a certain rule set is used, the more common it becomes.

Let's say I decide to host a game with a velocity limit of 280fps, not that many people are going to show because you will not find too many people who have guns that shoot that low.

If I host a game with a velocity limit of 450, since most people have guns that shoot 400 or less, they will all be able to attend.

If more hosts begin to host games with that specific rule set, more people will get their equipment tuned to that particular set of rules, especially if the events put on are ones that are quite popular.

It also depends on WHO hosts the game with the new rules, I'm sure a lot more people would be willing to go to a game with a new set of rules hosted by Riddick or SOTA who have an established track record, than if I did something.

If you've noticed, both of those particular organizers have gone to a higher FPS limit for semi auto only DMRs and mid caps only (and plenty of others have gone to mid caps only as well)

A couple of years ago this would have been considered crazy, yet here it is, the official AP guidlines have no changed, yet there are games being played with different velocity limits. And I believe SOTA also had a lower FPS limit for SMGs at some of their games if I am not mistaken.

I am in no way saying that AP must change and all must be forced to adhere to whatever the new guidelines are.

However, a thread like this shows support, as well as opposition to certain changes, and event organizers can make decisions on what they want to do with their games based on the feedback they see from the community.

[Chesty_01]

I guess the one thing I don't understand is why can't we have set limits? Regardless of what they are? I guess my pipe dream of expanding the AP community and making a organization is just that, a pipe dream.

Changing a large group of people is apparently harder then I thought. I have talked with a lot of people that would like to see some changes, but the general consensus is we are not wanting change enough.

[KA-BAR]

start hosting games chesty.....if lots of people show up, then you are on to something.

if no one shows up, well then there is your answer.

[Payback]

As for myself, and i'm sure many others are in the same spot, i only go by what i've been told. 400fps for AEG's is safe. I don't know otherwise since i made my gun shoot 390 to 400fps.

You can tell us that 450 is safe till your blue in the face. Maybe some testing should be done, put to video, and shown that 450 isn't any more dangerous than 400fps. Also show that 450 will make that much more of a difference than 400.

Once that's done, and proof is shown, i myself and others will more than likely fall in line with it, accept it as fact and not speculation, and support a change to higher fps. Then once game promoters use the higher limits, i'll buy an upgrade spring and do it.

[Chesty_01]

I have hosted games and will continue to host them in the future. Working on q couple new ideas right now. Problem is, nobody will come from around here because its not sector control. They are actually mil-sim ideas. I will also institute the higher fps limit for saws, with a limit to one per fire team. The I will also have a limited number of bolts that must carry a sidearm and cannot call safety kill. But then aeg's will have a hard cap of 400.

I am not going to rely on the AP community simply because that is not what AP as a whole is about. Most of my demographic will be from the Midwest. There is also going to be a 16 y/o or older age rule. It will be a lot of fun.

As far as making a video to prove my point. I don't have the capabilities to make a video worth a shit so short of making one with my phone, that ain't going to happen. It is q good idea though, but I just don't have the capabilities to do so.