AP safety/weapon rules

[Steve]

I would support the idea of requiring a training/certification for use of bolt action ONLY if the following conditions were met:

1. They are held quarterly, without fail.
2. They are FREE.
3. Nobody is grandfathered in, everybody has to take it.
4. A curriculum is written, agreed upon and adhered to.
5. Pass/fail conditions are based on what you learned and how you test on it, not your shooting SKILL.

If those conditions were met, training classes could work.

Shooting skill is integral. If they can't hit a smallish target at range repeatedly, that is a no-go. Anybody who isn't willing to put in the time and ammo to master the fundamentals of marksmanship lacks the self-discipline to be a decent shooter. Outside of LE engagements, snipers make first-round hits generally out a good number of football fields. If you can't make a shot out at 200 feet on a man-sized target with a bolt gun, then get thee back to the range, or take your rifle back to the lab and fix it.

Also, as part of the curriculum, they need to be willing and able to work as part of a sniper / spotter team. If they can't do the work of a spotter, then they are just a trigger monkey. There is no shame in that, just truth.

[Wisenheimer]

Replica weapons training? On a regularly scheduled basis?

Now THAT is a response to SB798.

We've got some real life firearms trainers here, anyone up to the task of building such a program? Fun, informational.... required. There's always talk about treating them as RS. This would put words into action.

[Payback]

...
Your safety is YOUR responsibility, Don't assume the other guy will worry about your safety, take your own precautions.

I think safety is all of our responsibility. People playing unsafe shouldn't be on the field.

Personally, I don't mind being safety killed. I'll happily take it, rather than getting railed in the face from 10 feet away.

Safety is all our responsibility, i worded it wrong, or it came across wrong.

Assume somebody will be unsafe at a game. Protect yourself first and foremost and be a safe player. But assume some a$$ will fook up and light up your face at close range.

Hope for the best, prepare for the worst.

[Steve]

Obviously you've never held an M249 or M60 made by STAR, A&K or Echo1. And these are the cheapest brands that most of the kiddies buy.

Actually, I run what started off as an Echo1 SAW. The unloaded weight is pretty close to what a FN M249 weighs. Yeah, you get some weight savings with airsoft ammo over real rounds.

I use it in CQB. Working as part of a stack with a SAW up and ready is not all that easy. They get heavier fast. Out running through the woods? Again, they get heavy. Now, RPKs aren't much heavier than AKs. And MG-36s are utter bullshit. Leaving aside those two exceptions, support platforms tend to weigh more than assault rifles. And unlike the uber-l33t snipers, ARs have to actually be able to assault forward.

And then you get into the money costs. SAWs are money pits, or at least mine is. I've replaced so many parts that it defies belief. I'm at the point where I am rebuilding the thing every two games. With the rules the way they are now, a SAW needs high ROF and a fairly wide beaten zone to suppress folks. And when you start adding bits and switch to lipos and running 5+k rounds a game out the muzzle, parts wear out pretty quick.

I mean, maybe I missed a memo, but SAWs get boxmags. And there aren't swarms of kids in hoodies and RealTree running around with SAWs. I highly doubt that adding an extra 50 FPS is going to change that. And if it does, after the fourth time in six weeks little Timmy has to rebuild his gearbox, chances are that he is going to sell off his SAW and go back to packing a P-90 with a STANAG conversion like the rest of the douchebags.

[Steve]

Replica weapons training? On a regularly scheduled basis?

Now THAT is a response to SB798.

We've got some real life firearms trainers here, anyone up to the task of building such a program? Fun, informational.... required. There's always talk about treating them as RS. This would put words into action.

Shit. When airsoft players are willing to pay RS training costs, sign me up. I'll write your curriculum, run the courses, and provide assistant instructors with real-world experience. Until then, I'm just going to sit back on the sidelines and point out that the community gets exactlym what it is willing to pay for. Which, on the whole, is not much.

You know why there aren't a whole lot of professional fields around here? You know why we hold the big events at paintball fields or in somebody's private property? Why almost every CQB arena in the PDX area shuts down inside of a year? Airsoft players, in general, are unwilling to pay enough to cover the operating costs.

['Skyhawk']

I don't see a problem with 450 FPS, as long as players wear proper eye protection. If you don't want to be injured or scared you should wear some sort of face protection as well, there are plenty of options out there that are not "Noob Helmets"

Another possible option which may be a little bit more feasable : Raise the general FPS limit to 425 FPS. This would increase the performance of many weapons without causing injury or safety concerns. This would also allow the installation of tight bore barrels on all 400 FPS weapons, increasing accuracy while still remaining within limits.

If there are still concerns with safety, make a minimun safe distance of engagement. In the other league I play in we have a distance of 25' for AEG/GBB, and a distance of 10' for semi-auto side arms. If you are inside of these distances you must "Safety Kill". If you find yourself inside 25', you deploy your sidearm and dispatch the target. The FPS limit is 425 and it has worked out fine for over 5 years. No one has been disfigured or blinded, or rendered infertile.

This safe distance method has actually made the game safer IMO. Almost everyone out there has a reliable sidearm, and they get good use in the field as a direct result of this rule. Also, close range light ups are rare and really frowned down upon as being a direct violation of the safety rules.

[Wisenheimer]

But it's not RS. It won't take near the training time. And as Matt mentioned, it would have to be free, or as Steve points out the cheapies won't pay. I myself am working on the safety video script. Believe me when I say that writing such a script I would charge at least $800. And my hourly rate for audio is $150, or $500 per day.

I'm not doing any of this for pay. It should be assumed that whomever would be creating/teaching said course would be a volunteer. We're a community coming together, not a corporation with a bottom line. Not everyone can afford to donate time or effort, or want to, and that is perfectly understandable.

But the question is not who won't do it, the question is who will?

[Catch22]

I thought the CQB arenas closed because of law suits, regulations or shitty management.

[Steve]

But it's not RS. It won't take near the training time[...]

You, sir, just made my day. That is hilarious!

In order to become proficient in the same skills, the end user will have to do the same drills the same number of times, and it will take about the same amount of time.

Granted, there are time savings because real magazine capacities are lower than in airsoft. But they are offset by having to train hard enough to unlearn all the stupid shit that airsofters do routinely. Because there is no appreciable recoil, for example, airsoft players are used to shooting at off angles without being in a good shooting position. While it works (ish) in airsoft, it is simply less accurate than taking up a good shooting position, getting a proper cheek weld, and good sight alignment. Training proper muzzle discipline is a lot easier when you aren't overcoming years of "but it's a toy" bullshit. And because ammo is so cheap, there is a tendency to try to "miss fast enough to catch up" rather than to take the time to do it right the first time.

I believe that it will actually take longer to teach proper skills to long-time airsoft players than it takes to teach motivated RS shooters. At every step. From individual shooter skills to buddy pair drills, to fire team, squad, and platoon drills. At every step of the process, I believe that airsoft plamyers are more resistant to learning, whinier, generally in poorer physical condition, and less physically and mentally prepared to learn compared with RS shooters engaging in the same type of training. Granted, the market segment of real shooters looking for this training is generally limited to LE, Military, and militia groups, so the pool is different.

I thought the CQB arenas closed because of law suits, regulations or shitty management.

I personally know of 2 that went down because the guys operating them weren't making enough to keep the doors open, the lights on, and the insurance premiums paid.

Pretty sure the zoning / safety issues that the others may or may not have been having could have been fixed. With money. Of course, the guys running them would have to have either secured a loan to do the capital improvements (which requires a business plan, which would show that they were not going to be profitable) or made enough from the arena to flat-out pay for fire doors and sprinkler systems.

And bad management can be fixed. If you are making money, then it is easier to hire a qualified manager, because you can actually pay them.

It all comes down to money. Or, in the case of airsoft fields, the lack thereof.

[Wisenheimer]

But it's not RS. It won't take near the training time[...]

You, sir, just made my day. That is hilarious!

In order to become proficient in the same skills, the end user will have to do the same drills the same number of times, and it will take about the same amount of time.

Your talking about skills. I'm talking about safety procedures. I honestly don't think it's realistic to have a pass/fail based on proficiency in airsoft.

In your context, your totally right though. That sort of training is more hardcore, and better suited to people who would pay for such classes.

['Skyhawk']

Nonsense.... a quick slap to the head or kick in the a$$ whenever there is a safety violation should do it. Repeat if necessary. ( Yes I'm joking)

But seriously every team should keep and eye on their guys and make each other aware of safety concerns. You don't have to go DI on them, ridicule can go a long way. If you feel stupid cause you just muzzle swept your entire team and they called you on it, you are less likely to do it again than if nothing was said.

I always wear UV safe Ansi rated sunglasses when not playing 'cause you never know what can happen accidentally. They cost a wopping $10 at the hardware store. A cheap investment that could save your eyes someday.

[Steve]

Safety is a skillset. It is a set of practiced learned behaviors. It isn't reflex. It isn't inborn knowledge. Much as we would all like to believe otherwise, we did not claw our way out of the womb, fully prepared to identify, close with, and destroy all who oppose us. While there are certainly genetic predispositions at work, a majority of the issues under discussion are due to learned behavior.

Specific to the topic discussed, safety precautions include, but are not limited to:

-Muzzle discipline
-Range estimation
-Safe handling (loading, unloading, and use of mechanical safety features)
-Identification of, and proper responses to, unsafe behavior by others

And these are just scratching the surface of "the basics". And yet, they are perennial issues simply because they are practiced skills that the community as a whole has not devoted time or effort to learn, demonstrate, and reinforce.

As to a pass / fail system, I cannot think of a better way. There are minimum standards that the community determines. Either you successfully demonstrate competency at them, or you do not.

[Wisenheimer]

Steve, your not wrong. But we have to be realistic. Aside from the basics, it needs on the field reinforcement by everyone, not just the admins. Arguments shouldn't ever need to be settled by an admin. People should have the balls to interject into the yell-fest conversation that happens on the field, and get everyone in check. Every time. Begrudgingly or not.

Basically, what I'm saying is it goes well beyond a mere training session. I think that's what your saying too. But we have to start somewhere.

That's my philosophy. Wiki it, you know how that turns out.

[VogonFord]

Leave it as it is.

[dr.feelgood]

Oh look, this thread again.

On a related note, I keep seeing things on the boards about safety kills; is this really that big of a problem? All of my safety kill experiences have been at the range of about 5-10 feet and end with me thanking them for not being a tool. Seriously, IT IS NOT THAT HARD TO BE A GOOD PERSON.

And continuing on to the subject at hand. What is stopping event promoters from declaring whatever FPS they want to use, people always seem to throw fits online about it being 'unsafe' but they simply could NOT GO. Let people vote with their feet. I personally have no interest in adding danger to airsoft, but the raised FPS does seem to bring out the chest thumping 'danger maniac's that seem to prefer simunitions and more pain. Hell there are pretty large no limit FPS games in Asia and Hawaii, and maybe there is a market for that here.

I could ask why this would be appealing to people, because airsoft is a hobby. We are, after all, grown men who play dressup and then run around with fake guns. This isn't training for when we storm into Canada (for most of us at least) and doesn't need to be treated as such. Making airsoft more dangerous won't add inches to your tool, or give you that 'bad boy' vibe like a motorcyclist.. It is still dressup call of duty (or some slightly more realistic shooting game).