Higher FPS for Medium Machineguns

[Riddick]

Topic name changed.

At OP Gallant Saber II up in WA, they ran two 500 FPS gas Asahi M60s mounted to an M113 all day. Nobody got hurt. The weapons were operated by the vehicle crew, who were essentially part of the volunteer staff for the game. The made the vehicles more feared because the crew-served weapons had more range.....

They were feared because we couldn't shoot back at them.

that is true

[Bulldog]

I like the tests with the different FPS' and bb weights. Sadly a "hop-up" unit is not the only device out there to create the Magnus effect.
For instance you take an LRB in a classic at playable limits it'll reach 300ft with .28s, if I bump that up to 600 fps and start dumping .40s I could have a very large range.

There is a guy on CA.net that has implanted an LRB into I believe a VSR and is achieving crazy ranges at the 6-700 fps range.

I enjoy these "discussions" when they come up.

[Jerm_G]

So here is my two cents, since that is about what my opinion is worth. In the "real world" crew serves are generally given a sector of fire and are used to provide cover by forcing an OPFOR's face in the dirt and remove as many opposition as possible before the assault force closes the last few yards on the objective. The M-240 when mounted on a tripod with optics can shoot anywhere from 1000 + yards. Well out of range for even harassing rifle fire and at the limit and beyond for most Soviet Union built sniper rifles.

The thing about support crew serve weapons in airsoft is that most don't function well enough to use. Mortars are still a work in progress and we can only simulate anything bigger in range. This would simply add more elements to the command and control process as well as mission planning if properly implemented in an event. I don’t see these being implemented at your average game, only the most highly organized “mil-simâ€

[ScaredShooter]

This is for sure an interesting idea. I think the notion of making support weapons more feared is a valid one.
I suspect a lot of the support weapons currently in use could handle the heavier springs, and if done right it could of course give them a distinct distance advantage.
Also, not being able to return fire is pretty thrilling! A weapon that is like 15 pounds and requires multiple people to keep running should be more feared than a KWA (or other high ROF) M4 with a boxmag. As concerned for safety, this community does a really good job of watching people.. Since people with bolt actions tend to be careful with how close they engage their targets, the same precautions would just need to be transfered to teams carrying SAWs. I think it could be done. Not that anyone should care what I think. As for the foolish newbs (myself sort of included), I dont think most of them could afford the SAWs running a beefy gearbox and 500 FPS.. I would imagine they wont even be out there to worry about.

[Jerm_G]

Again as Dan has posted, this thread has nothing to do with SAWs. It is about the M-240 medium machine gun or equivalent being used as a support by fire system at the company/platoon level. M-4s with box mags and SAWs that pack 5000 rounds in a box mag, in my opinion have no place in realistic "mil-sim" events. Hell I would like to see all high caps of all kinds removed from games.

BTW just something to think about...
The weight of a single 200 round box magazine for the M-249 SAW in the real world is 6.92 pounds. Therefore 5,000 rounds of linked 5.56 in 200 round drums would top the scales at 173 pounds.... in just ammo.

[ScaredShooter]

My apologies Jerm..

[Steve]

Again as Dan has posted, this thread has nothing to do with SAWs. It is about the M-240 medium machine gun or equivalent being used as a support by fire system at the company/platoon level. M-4s with box mags and SAWs that pack 5000 rounds in a box mag, in my opinion have no place in realistic "mil-sim" events. Hell I would like to see all high caps of all kinds removed from games.

BTW just something to think about...
The weight of a single 200 round box magazine for the M-249 SAW in the real world is 6.92 pounds. Therefore 5,000 rounds of linked 5.56 in 200 round drums would top the scales at 173 pounds.... in just ammo.

I respectfully disagree with banning all hicap mags in mil-sim. Hicap VN STANAG mags (the 20-round RS mags) hold around 200 pellets. This makes them pretty good choices for SAW gunners to use until somebody comes out with real-cap drums.

Ban anything that's not real-cap from milsim!

[Cap n pickles]

Again as Dan has posted, this thread has nothing to do with SAWs. It is about the M-240 medium machine gun or equivalent being used as a support by fire system at the company/platoon level. M-4s with box mags and SAWs that pack 5000 rounds in a box mag, in my opinion have no place in realistic "mil-sim" events. Hell I would like to see all high caps of all kinds removed from games.

BTW just something to think about...
The weight of a single 200 round box magazine for the M-249 SAW in the real world is 6.92 pounds. Therefore 5,000 rounds of linked 5.56 in 200 round drums would top the scales at 173 pounds.... in just ammo.

While i totally agree that real caps are super cool, the thing to keep in mind is that in Airosft you generally have to put more rounds down range than in real life, almost 3 times as much, for the 30 rounds a M4 shoots you would need about 70-90 in airsoft. You have leaves... everywhere. The range is only 150ft on avg. I had real caps and it made it very fun to play with, but another problem is that not all gun platforms have real caps, and to further that, good quality real caps.

I think the answer to carrying ammo limits in milsim games is to distribute a certain amount of ammo per person, if you issue the operator 7 mags (U.S. ARMY standard) you give him 500 rounds to load into his 7 mid caps. When another resupply comes through (I would assume game promoter supplied, this could be included in the game fee. AKA Not really having to pay for ammo) they would be given another 500 rounds. this is of course an example, and could be less or more ammo depending on what the admins say.

On the topic of FPS, Phoenix is correct. In Arizona they play at 500 FPS due to the lack of trees and cover to dive behind. The guns can handle it, you just need quality parts.

And as mentioned a few times, if you feel the game is unsafe to your health, do not attend. No one is making you, and no one is going to argue with you to go.

[Ivan Daylovich™]

Immaturity like...I'm not coming, bloody face, band aids, "oh this crap again" and all the rest of the negativity doesn't contribute to the discussion.

Immaturity like bloody faces? Seriously, what is wrong with you?

And as mentioned a few times, if you feel the game is unsafe to your health, do not attend. No one is making you, and no one is going to argue with you to go.

That would be a valid response if this were a game thread, but it's not. It's a thread talking about having higher FPS limits for MGs. So you should be expecting to hear people argue the other side.

[Jerm_G]

Again as Dan has posted, this thread has nothing to do with SAWs. It is about the M-240 medium machine gun or equivalent being used as a support by fire system at the company/platoon level. M-4s with box mags and SAWs that pack 5000 rounds in a box mag, in my opinion have no place in realistic "mil-sim" events. Hell I would like to see all high caps of all kinds removed from games.

BTW just something to think about...
The weight of a single 200 round box magazine for the M-249 SAW in the real world is 6.92 pounds. Therefore 5,000 rounds of linked 5.56 in 200 round drums would top the scales at 173 pounds.... in just ammo.

I respectfully disagree with banning all hicap mags in mil-sim. Hicap VN STANAG mags (the 20-round RS mags) hold around 200 pellets. This makes them pretty good choices for SAW gunners to use until somebody comes out with real-cap drums.

Ban anything that's not real-cap from milsim!

I would agree with you that in that case, that would be a reasonable fix. I also don't have a huge problem with mid caps too. However when every gun on the field is a SAW gunner by sheer round count...... really?

Back on topic...
Safety is a issue with MGs running at high velocities but the the risk can be safely managed and decrease the risk associated to the same level as any 400 FPS gun. The real question is would the introduction of CSWs being used as designed into select mil-sim games have a positive effect on game play and is it worth while to even purchase CSWs like the M-240
unless they can be used as they are in their real roles?

[Catch22]

The first rule of airsoft isn't realism, it's safety.

Vehicles already have the advantage of LMG's and MMG's ammo capactity. The rules at most games are that they can only be destroyed by grenades and 203's which makes them fomidable enough. Vehicles will be engaging targets on the road or just off the road at very close distances. To destroy the vehicles players need to get closer to hit it with a grenade or 203. This will lead to people beeing shot at close range with a high FPS weapon. This is unsafe.

LMG's and MMG in fixed fighting position or bunkers have the advanage aswell. To defeat these you need to get close aswell. Either enter the position to shoot the operators or close enough to hit with a grenade or 203. Once again close engagements with high FPS and very unsafe.

I have no idea where you're gonna get tripods for this weapon so I imagine it will be using the regular bipod. Which renders that whole arguement moot, since it will be used just like a m249, mk46, mk48 or rpk.

Since people will also want to use it for patroling and assaulting objectives. You can expect more close range engagements and more injuries.

If this happens the next arguement will be for FPS to match the caliber that your airsoft rifles realworld couterpart would use. "Since my rifle fires a 762 it should be at 450 FPS" Every kid that picks up a CYMA AK will want it shooting hot. This is a slippery slope and in the end will lead to damages and injuries.

[G36 FTW]

I wouldn’t want to see any LMG shooting over 450fps…

With bolt actions shooting over 500fps, there is a huge gap between shots and the user is generally very aware of his/her surroundings. However, that would be different with anyone wielding an automatic weapon. If someone is covering their squad as they move up or just gluing the trigger down they may not notice someone crossing their line of fire (and that person may not be paying attention to the gunner who was supposed to be covering them). They accidentally strafe their teammate from 15ft away and they dish out a nice line of bloody welts because of their 500+ fps lmg. This already occasionally happens, but not at 500+ fps.

There are also various other scenarios people have already pointed out which all involve shooting others in close proximity with their 500+ fps lmg, and just point out how unsafe that kind of firepower would be.

I personally think real lmgs (excluding saws) should have the benefit of 50 additional fps, but any higher and things get unsafe.

[Jester316]

I would like to do a test. I need a volunteer to get shot with a variety of guns shooting from 300 fps to 550 fps at a range of 20 feet. I would like to document the differences in "injuries" that can happen.

Any takers?

[Darius137]

@Nocte: I know I didn't do an in-depth analysis of distance, safety or accuracy. Safety isn't a factor for me until I see proof that it's any more dangerous or real-world examples of it causing more damage. I put it up as an idea, hoping that people would show the physics and increased limits, as you have done.

@Seagreen: The reason I started it was a discussion on the use of MG teams for a mil-sim game. I like what I'm seeing from the helpful posts, and don't mind sifting through the less than helpful ones.

@Matt: Yes, completely.

@Catch: You are bringing up specific scenarios. I am talking about a mil-sim game and having the weapons squad leader acting as a purely safety/admin/coordinator for the two guns, and having them in a game where their purpose is to sit well away from the objective and rain down bb's to keep heads down, suppress and fix the enemy in position so the line squads can go in with guns a-blazin.

There are plenty of tripods available. Real and airsoft, that will fit a pintle mount and an M240 (if the weapon is made well). Gun teams can also use bipods that come with the gun. The point of a CSW isn't the devices, but the purpose in the game.

I would even argue that 550-600fps on an M240 mounted on a vehicle would be good to go. Because it's airsoft people rush vehicles and aren't scared. If there was an M240 mounted on a Toyota Tacoma, I'm not going to be so dumb.

[SilentStalker]

Dan, You stated that you would have the MGs used by personnel that are acting as player admins. My question to you is who would you trust to do this? I was at a game before my vacation over here and one of the admins was drinking Rum and orange soda in his water bottle. I am not mentioning names but if I saw this individual on one of your heavy weapons platoons I would have to quit the game and demand a refund due to feeling unsafe that an up to 600 fps replica is being used by an individual that feels it is a good idea to drink while being in a position of enforcing the safety rules of the game.
Could the same or a similar effect be achieved by implementing magazine restrictions and or maybe decreasing the FPS of the other platforms on the field? Maybe put the standard riflemen at 300 fps and incrementally bring up the FPS to each platform group until you have the MGs shooting 400 FPS? Just a thought to achieve your desired effect without increasing the FPS to what some might think is an unsafe limit.
I like the idea people are trying to look outside the box for a more Mil Sim alternative but like stated before we have to be safe.
I would have to say that until there is a standard to what people are trained to gauge distance and responsibility to be able to handle such a platform at such high FPS and this standard is accepted by all promoters so there is a consensus on the training and evaluation process I would have to say I would not be interested in participating due to I have a family to take care of and I play this to unwind but still have to report to work on Monday.
Best of luck on hashing this out.
SilentStalker.