League Membership / Card Voucher System

[Matt]

League = gay. Remember we are a hobby and not a sport. We tried the league thing a few years ago. It got shit on hard by people in this community who for it now... Poor Nials...

No draft bs...

If we do anything, we should turn this community into an umbrella organization that has a board of directors of unit commanders. That way we can govern this community by setting up rules for it members and event hosts.
The dues will help cut insurance for Community events.

The No 5 RAC will take care of our minor recruits on our own...

But... that sounds like a league to me.

[Catch22]

.........A simple system to implement now for the entire community (any game, any skirm, you catch a person that is just being an annoyance) that allows us to eliminate and discourage hacking is needed. That way the people that don't follow the rule even when it is just a fun skirm that doesn't matter can be dealt with. If you want to host a skirm with no rules and therefore there can't be hacking that is fine, but if you host an event and there is a person that can't follow the rules the community should be notified, so they can be avoided.

"being an annoyance".... That's everyone that play airsoft

League = gay. Remember we are a hobby and not a sport. We tried the league thing a few years ago. It got shit on hard by people in this community who are for it now... Poor Nials...

No draft bs...

If we do anything, we should turn this community into an umbrella organization that has a board of directors of unit commanders. That way we can govern this community by setting up rules for it members and event hosts.
The dues will help cut insurance for Community events.

The No 5 RAC will take care of our minor recruits on our own...

Yeah, still don't want a league and I really don't need a bunch of team captains telling me what rules to have at my games.

[Limpy]

I just want to let the adults talk for once, but I will say that I think an AP League is too off putting for new players, and is off putting to me. I'd much prefer a voucher system, as it would be a lot simpler, and it wouldn't have to be another $15 to pay to play. There is a reason airsoft is easier to get into than paintball.

[Chachi]

$15 - $25 per year is too much? $2-$4 a month is too much? We pay hundreds of dollars to buy our gun platforms and all the gear that goes with it, and this extra amount would be too much? Don't get me wrong, I can relate to money being tight and all, but you really wouldn't pay a few bucks more per month.....if it meant better game quality? To me, and of course this is just one man's opinion, but it is absolutely worth it. The concept that was mentioned for this membership fee isn't to just make more money and give you the same product that you have been getting. It is to potentially provide you with a better product.

[Limpy]

$15 - $25 per year is too much? $2-$4 a month is too much? We pay hundreds of dollars to buy our gun platforms and all the gear that goes with it, and this extra amount would be too much? Don't get me wrong, I can relate to money being tight and all, but you really wouldn't pay a few bucks more per month.....if it meant better game quality? To me, and of course this is just one man's opinion, but it is absolutely worth it. The concept that was mentioned for this membership fee isn't to just make more money and give you the same product that you have been getting. It is to potentially provide you with a better product.

Oh, I believe I had read the posts incorrectly, I had thought it was 15 or 25 for an ID before an OP, and that it was just once at whatever event you were going to. My bad.

[Seagreen]

A league would lead people to believe that it would incorporate team competition, and to date there just hasn't been enough consistency in team competitions to warrant a league.

Personally I won't join this scheme and I won't participate in games that require it.
Some of the "Most respected" members of this community are inveterate bullies and hackers. This would just be another mechanism for them to throw their weight around

Who? I'm more than willing to uninvite players to future BSP events based on a community concensus. I agree, there are problematic people in this community. I'm not saying dime them out now, I'm saying prior to an event I host, let me know who they are so they can be left out.

if it meant better game quality?

We did try a league concept a few years ago. NWAL ended up being a powerplay to rip AP apart rather than to build a coalition of players to participate in future games.

I personally wouldn't be interested in any form of league unless it could guarantee team play events that are worthy of milsim/tacsim airsofting. Speedball and other similar games wouldn't justify this type of league to me.

Another question about a league concept with dues: Paying who? There are several event hosts that are the backbone of airsoft events in this community. I doubt that those groups are willing to get a central tax ID and start collecting another way for the IRS to beat them loudly.

[Geschutz]

We did try a league concept a few years ago. NWAL ended up being a powerplay to rip AP apart rather than to build a coalition of players to participate in future games.

HAHAHAHA I remember that....

[Seagreen]

Would you not agree with that assessment though Chuck?

[Matt]

I think some of you guys are jumping to conclusions. I'm not suggesting that we start a sporting league. I'm not suggesting that we tell you how to run your games, I'm not suggesting that we force your team to draft players or that we tell you how to choose your members. I just want an association established so we can keep better track of our members. There's more than one definition of a league.

To me, when I hear "we have too many cheaters" or "we need more age limits" or "we need to educate people better on how this game is played" I see the need for an established organization. I see the volunteer method of doing this fail over and over again. However we're doing it now, it's not working.

To me, writing names down sounds totally ghetto. There's room for human error. It's like the AP good ole boys club x 100. You think the conspiracy theories are bad now? Wait til you put together a system where you start maintaining a blacklist. Drama galore.

NWAL was all wrong. The problem with NWAL was that everyone involved wanted to babysit the entire community. I want nothing to do with that. I just want a system of tracking membership and a way to conveniently allow event promoters to keep track of who's at their games and "demerit" them if they don't follow the very basic rules we all have been following for years. When a BB hits, you call it. That's a rule we can all agree on, right? Much like when you're on the field, you wear your goggles. You don't shoot somebody at 5' with a 550fps sniper rifle. These are the types of rules that almost never change.

Another question about a league concept with dues: Paying who? There are several event hosts that are the backbone of airsoft events in this community. I doubt that those groups are willing to get a central tax ID and start collecting another way for the IRS to beat them loudly.

I'd do it. That's easy. Cost of dues would be based on cost of materials. This isn't going to be a big money maker. It's not about profit, it's about seeing what we could accomplish as an established league, and how much would we all need to throw in the hat to make it happen. And ultimately, how does it improve our situation? If it doesn't, then we don't do it. We find a similar method and we leave it free.

[Seagreen]

Cost of dues would be based on cost of materials. This isn't going to be a big money maker.

I don't know man, there are a ton of users on AP. If it were a $25 a pop deal for "everybody" that'd add up quick. The cost of materials for this type of venture is fully dependant on how deep that executive body would want to go with it. Card readers...all that jazz (which would lead to logistical problems due to it not working or not having it at the show)...or maybe a website plugin that event hosts could access and provide feedback on their player numbers to add to a central database (which wouldn't be fun). I think there is a place for it, and no place for a league at all at the same time. I think you can see where I'm coming from considering the NWAL fiasco and of course the dispersed event organizer demographic. An executive branch tends to be a branch that people tend to turn on...almost immediately.

I don't foresee a league so much as a slightly more formal operating environment. The concept you put forward does have it's pluses...but it's a lot of work yo!

[Matt]

Yeah, but I wouldn't expect the entire AP audience to adopt it and join. Remember we have registered users all over the world who don't even play in our games. We may only have like 1,000 actual active players in this area at a given time. Insurance alone, based on previous quotes, could be $3000-5000 per year for an organization like this. That's a big chunk of change. Doesn't even touch the whole membership card thing.

But back to the registration process - that's easily something that could be improved here. The important thing is that we stop anonymous hosers from showing up and acting like assholes at every game.

[Merchant]

Yeah, but I wouldn't expect the entire AP audience to adopt it and join. Remember we have registered users all over the world who don't even play in our games. We may only have like 1,000 actual active players in this area at a given time. Insurance alone, based on previous quotes, could be $3000-5000 per year for an organization like this. That's a big chunk of change. Doesn't even touch the whole membership card thing.

But back to the registration process - that's easily something that could be improved here. The important thing is that we stop anonymous hosers from showing up and acting like assholes at every game.

So would we have some games that would use the card system and some that wouldn't depending on the host?

You could incorporate your major/minor league by using that system. If you have a card (or maybe "gold/elite" membership) you can attend the games that have elite membership, and make those games more milsim oriented.

[Tactical Church]

I am totally agreeing with Matt on this one. The past league ( i wasnt here for ) sounded like it was a mistake but you have to take in the concept of the fact of how this could effect our community.

To me the major benefit of the league is unity, organization, and a much better experience on the field.

Im tired of every game people getting pissed off at the 16 year old just because he showed up in a hoodie and a clear gun. We should be encouraging them rather than tearing them down. and with an organized system to keep track of our players and what kind of games we want, it will help with everyones overall experience of each game.

I say listen to Matt because he isnt trying to control you but more just add to the experience we already have.

BTW 15$ a year is not that big of a deal. Times are hard but not that hard.

[Darius137]

So we have a few sub-topics that could probably all warrant their own threads:

1) How is the league set up with regards to money being exchanged. Who gets the money, is there an LLC to run the whole thing? Who are the partners controlling it, which leads to..

2) Who is running the league? How does one get kicked off the league command chain or inducted into it?

3) Player and host accountability (electronically or card based)

4) Involvement in the league and is the league required for some events or does it have with it some form of exclusivity.

Pulling from my experience:
CAG/PLA is a group that is always changing. We are now at a point where we have 35 active members and another 20-40 that are semi-active (we call them reservists).

We are getting to a point where we are almost a league in ourselves. Not a paying league, or even one small team by AP standards. We show up to games with sometimes over 30 players.

Within CAG there are squads and elements and sections. All part of the same team, but each with their own identity.

We don't charge a fee to be a part of CAG and usually our training is at cost or even loses money for those hosting it, but we do it because of a goal of getting mil-sim to the point where we can successfully perform Battle Drill 1 (Platoon Attack) with squads and smaller elements all on the same page.

One thing I would take from CAG if there ever was a league is that we use our numbers to get better prices. We do group orders, which unfortunately have a cost to the leadership who are usually out a few hundred dollars until all the cheap, individual stuff is handed out. If there was a pot of money or a league system, it could use that pot to pay temporary bulk costs instead of leaders or individuals.

We have purposely avoided a paying league because we don't want to exclude people that can't afford it. Also we make all trainings free, because the moment you accept money for an event you accept responsibility.


Another Possible prototype group:
Another group is the Spokane Airsoft guys. They have a membership and host games as an entity. They charge for a membership but it's not required. When they host games, they have a league price and a non-league price, so if you are not in the league and play 1-3 games a year, you'll save money, but if you play more than 3 games a year, you'll end up saving money by joining the league anyways.

Eudorus brings up a good point about who is running this league. How are you going to get all the factions of the airsoft world on the table and let minority voices be heard? The reason so many leagues pop up and discussions about leagues is because smaller groups feel like there is already an oligarchy within AP or APST running the forums and boards.


Electronic Player cards
I think the topic of electronically monitoring people is a good idea. Each person has an account and that account is linked to them signing up for games. As they flake or play at games they get a record of trust to attend if they say they're going to attend. Things like xbox achievements is (in my opinion) silly and too videogame-sim for my taste. I don't want a "knife kill" button on my avatar. I've been thinking about a system like this for some time for a possible website that would expand beyond airsoft and be used to set up games or events, though I can barely find porn online, let alone program a website, so it's been on the backburner for about a year.

[john boy]

How about a league of hosts? Hostess League?