League Membership / Card Voucher System

[Dalb]

Sounds like a call for more admins to me.
Cards are complicated.
Photos of every player is time consuming and pointless.
If a person is caught and confirmed, take down the information and a picture. Kick 'em out.

[Matt]

We stopped talking about cards like two pages ago... Read the thread. Now we're on to tracking it on AP. It's all electronic and managed by event hosts. No card to carry.

The problem with "more admin" is that most people will break rules and act like total dickheads - then nobody will remember who they are. Either the admin are too lazy to do anything about it, or they completely forget who it was. You don't know all of their details, in some cases you don't even know their full name unless you can somehow match their waiver to their profile and read their chicken-scratch handwriting. If we tie their in-game reputation to their forum reputation, and they're signing up - it's really easy to see they have a horrible reputation and deny them right there on the spot.

IMO more admins = less atmosphere. More dudes in orange vests walking around babysitting us is not a good thing. Are we playing Paintball here? If the community polices itself better, we won't need 1 admin for every 10 players. We'll just show up, play honorably, and have fun.

If the admin thing were working thus-far, we wouldn't be having this discussion. You want to do exactly the same thing we've been doing, how do you expect the results will be any different?

[Tactical Church]

Sounds like a call for more admins to me.
Cards are complicated.
Photos of every player is time consuming and pointless.
If a person is caught and confirmed, take down the information and a picture. Kick 'em out.

But thats the thing i think we need to avoid. We shouldnt just kick em to the curb but try to retrain em and help em as friends rather than they are enemies of the state.

If we just kick out every guy who messes up or makes a dumb mistake then the community wont group but become a smaller click of people like in highschool

[Tactical Church]

Yes this might just be wishful thinking but I love the idea of starting out as a private in our community and rising in the ranks as the years go by with me playing this awsome sport.

I'm not sure if that's a good idea. We have people in this community who have earned those ranks in the real world. I would rather avoid using real military ranks, but I think the system could be similar.

I forgot how that might be offensive or annoying to them but ya it was just wishful dreaming haha

[Catch22]

The problem with "more admin" is that most people will break rules and act like total dickheads - then nobody will remember who they are. Either the admin are too lazy to do anything about it, or they completely forget who it was. You don't know all of their details, in some cases you don't even know their full name unless you can somehow match their waiver to their profile and read their chicken-scratch handwriting. If we tie their in-game reputation to their forum reputation, and they're signing up - it's really easy to see they have a horrible reputation and deny them right there on the spot.

IMO more admins = less atmosphere. More dudes in orange vests walking around babysitting us is not a good thing. Are we playing Paintball here? If the community polices itself better, we won't need 1 admin for every 10 players. We'll just show up, play honorably, and have fun.

If the admin thing were working thus-far, we wouldn't be having this discussion. You want to do exactly the same thing we've been doing, how do you expect the results will be any different?

How are you gonna get their name and info then? If you can't figure out who's hacking now... "realtree kid did it" How are you gonna do it with no admin?

Also the reason admin don't work is because there isn't enough of them or they don't know what's going on. Game admin need to be plentiful and sack up and do their job.

[Matt]

How are you gonna get their name and info then? If you can't figure out who's hacking now... "realtree kid did it" How are you gonna do it with no admin?

Also the reason admin don't work is because there isn't enough of them or they don't know what's going on. Game admin need to be plentiful and sack up and do their job.

Either it would be through a beefed up registration process OR they would join some sort of club, with a verified address. The point is accountability here. Nobody has any consequences because of the fact that for all we know they're just anonymous people who signed up for a forum account.

My suggest is you have a club within the community for those who are serious about the game. They register as members. This ties into the whole reputation system and everything else. We have rules, we have consequences if you don't follow them. If a promoter wants to filter out the undesirables, he/she only allows registered members to attend. I'm not saying that all events would be this way, of course anybody is free to host an open event whenever they want. But at least this would give an option to filter out a higher caliber player.

You can't even register for a bowling league without some personal information given. If you want to step up the quality of attendance you have to step up the accountability.

You nailed the problem on the head. There's no records. Everybody is anonymous. You show up and play, and you only get shunned out of the community for cheating IF people remember you and IF all of the other event promoters get word and also recognize you. There's got to be some degree of overhead to manage it.

[dos_Santos]

If we could borrow the card system like the soccer leagues have (indoor and outdoor), I think the quality of play has the potential to go up. Each entity has setup that each player have a picture ID card. This states that they have signed a release form that has a yearly renewal. The usual cost is about $10-$15 per year (per facility; in a case like mine, I have up to 3 cards for different leagues) but can go as high as $35 (Oregon Adult Soccer Association). When you show up to a game you HAVE to submit the card to the referee before the game. That way, if there is a problem, like a red card, he yanks your card, submits it to the governing body of that card and it is noted in your account. As long as they have your card, you can't play. (Usually a red card means you miss the next game then the card is returned to you.)

Our situation is unique in that each event promoter has their own release, so someone could potentially have 3-4 cards yearly which could get costly at $10-$15 per card. I also can't help taking this a bit further that if we had a governing regional body for airsoft (Airsoft Pacific League (APL) for the sake of argument), the yearly card fee's could pay for the administration, running events, etc). If each promoter was APL certified, then an APL card would be good at any APL sanctioned game. When I did mountain bike racing, NORBA was set up like this for $35 per year, and the fees went to good causes (trail projects, etc.) and running NORBA (advertising, media, etc.).

The more I think about it, the more questions come up, but I think a round-table discussion might be worth while if people were up for it.

[Pacman]

Some great ideas being discussed but I can't see most of it working in the long run without everybody on the same page. It's hard enough now to enforce bio ammo rules, getting everybody to chrono and even at times pay for the event itself without adding a layer of paperwork to the workload of the host. It seems now that the worst offenders get the social shunning and end up disappearing or changing their ways eventually. Having assertive admin willing to give the boot to people hacking would help. I think the underlying issue is that younger players are just that- young and don't have a clue. The ATA seemed to help this quite a bit as the people attending were much more responsible on the field. This also gave them the much needed pointers from the older players that helped them avoid the pitfalls some of the new players fall into.
Other than that the verbal voucher and 18+ games are easy to do and add no cost to either side. When you attend a large event that the promoter has put a low age limit on it's expected your bound to see some shenanigans.

[Tactical Church]

If we could borrow the card system like the soccer leagues have (indoor and outdoor), I think the quality of play has the potential to go up. Each entity has setup that each player have a picture ID card. This states that they have signed a release form that has a yearly renewal. The usual cost is about $10-$15 per year (per facility; in a case like mine, I have up to 3 cards for different leagues) but can go as high as $35 (Oregon Adult Soccer Association). When you show up to a game you HAVE to submit the card to the referee before the game. That way, if there is a problem, like a red card, he yanks your card, submits it to the governing body of that card and it is noted in your account. As long as they have your card, you can't play. (Usually a red card means you miss the next game then the card is returned to you.)

Our situation is unique in that each event promoter has their own release, so someone could potentially have 3-4 cards yearly which could get costly at $10-$15 per card. I also can't help taking this a bit further that if we had a governing regional body for airsoft (Airsoft Pacific League (APL) for the sake of argument), the yearly card fee's could pay for the administration, running events, etc). If each promoter was APL certified, then an APL card would be good at any APL sanctioned game. When I did mountain bike racing, NORBA was set up like this for $35 per year, and the fees went to good causes (trail projects, etc.) and running NORBA (advertising, media, etc.).

The more I think about it, the more questions come up, but I think a round-table discussion might be worth while if people were up for it.

To add i think an APL would be nice because it would bring our community closer together, we might even see more quality games because of it because there will be veterans as well as new hosters of games. Also it would give a firm governing entity that would make dealing out discipline a little more official rather than a single person who you feel might have it in for you.

Paying for a card is not a giant deal to me since this is my main hobby so i would see it as worth it and be even proud to have an APL card in my wallet to even more connected to my sport and friends.

[MillerSA15]

Having a huge meeting of all past, future and current game promoters, as well as local team captains is a great idea.

Matt, the problem of "bright orange vest" admins all over the field could be solved with player admins. Basically it is set up as a group of players that have been found trustworthy to such a high level that if they see someone hacking, it can be trusted.

One of my main concerns here that has been brought up in the past is that it is very easy to not feel/ sense hits. I would hate to blacklist someone just because their hearing is poor, and they wear a lot of gear. I am sure it doesn't happen very often, but still.

[quigly]

What if for a game by game basis, have a card given to you at time of registration and payment, and have the person fill the card out with full name and call sign(verified with reg. forms). If a admin sees you cheat or other wise "hack" the game, they will hole punch your card at a given spot. Then the admin that gave him the hole would let the others admin know to keep a look out for this particular guy. If another admin sees the same guy cheating, he is kicked from the game. That way it would be impossible for one admin to have a grudge and kick the player on his own. And it could be changed to what ever number of offenses.

[Zack]

If we could borrow the card system like the soccer leagues have (indoor and outdoor), I think the quality of play has the potential to go up. Each entity has setup that each player have a picture ID card. This states that they have signed a release form that has a yearly renewal. The usual cost is about $10-$15 per year (per facility; in a case like mine, I have up to 3 cards for different leagues) but can go as high as $35 (Oregon Adult Soccer Association). When you show up to a game you HAVE to submit the card to the referee before the game. That way, if there is a problem, like a red card, he yanks your card, submits it to the governing body of that card and it is noted in your account. As long as they have your card, you can't play. (Usually a red card means you miss the next game then the card is returned to you.)

Our situation is unique in that each event promoter has their own release, so someone could potentially have 3-4 cards yearly which could get costly at $10-$15 per card. I also can't help taking this a bit further that if we had a governing regional body for airsoft (Airsoft Pacific League (APL) for the sake of argument), the yearly card fee's could pay for the administration, running events, etc). If each promoter was APL certified, then an APL card would be good at any APL sanctioned game. When I did mountain bike racing, NORBA was set up like this for $35 per year, and the fees went to good causes (trail projects, etc.) and running NORBA (advertising, media, etc.).

The more I think about it, the more questions come up, but I think a round-table discussion might be worth while if people were up for it.

This.

Also, as was mentioned before, registering for "league" games will make tracking who shows up (for an attendance point system) much easier by providing a sign in roster.

Personally, I would like to see a "red card" style system, players aren't rewarded just for showing up, but they are held accountable for their actions (if caught). Yellow card for minor infractions, red card for major.

$25 a year and a small card to carry? Even Borders requires that for their club. Card could be required at sign in, and upon request of an admin. If an admin asks to see your card, and you don't have it, you are escorted off the field.

A basic framework along what has been discussed could (potentially) streamline sign in, and might even lower the number of no-shows.

Implementation should be voluntary to event promoters.

Strictness could be scaled up, or back, depending on event promoters choice. Example: some event hosts may decide that in order to attend the players must currently have no yellow cards, while another may say anyone with less than three yellow may show up.


Possibilities = endless.

*raises beer* To the airsofting community in the PACNW!

[Shiloh]

As I read more on this topic, the more I'm starting to love the idea. It would definitely help with the cheating issues and could even encourage more players that would want a more organized game and community. My only real question is as follows:

Unfortunately, and I'm sure many people in this community of ours share this sentiment, I can't get out to play as much as I would like. Being in the Northwestern end of WA state, it's really difficult for me to get to games in Oregon sometimes. So how would the voucher system work for those of us who aren't very well known in the community, such as me? I've been to ONE big AP game, and that was Conflict Europe 4. Not many (hell, probably none of you) know me by name, and if I'm reading the voucher system right, it could be really difficult to get someone to give me the stamp of approval. If I wanted to get in and asked someone to vouch for me, all they would (most likely) see is a whiny 17 year old who wants to go play airsoft with the "real scene". What possible incentive would they have to nominate someone, especially if their own reputation could be at stake?

I might be reading the whole thing the wrong way, and if I am please feel free to correct (read: not flame) me. Otherwise, though, I think the whole voucher/card system is awesome. Maybe game attendance wouldn't be at it's peak, but it would be a hell of a lot better gameplay than if we let every joe schmoe off the street walk in.

[Switchback]

I think there should be more training opportunities for new players and even veteran players. It might just be me coming back into the sport this fall but I think alot of players would benefit from more training.

It'd be cool if there was optional training for 2 hours before a skirm, and then the skirmish could be less hardcore, more focused on improving the tactics learned; almost staged, but not really.

This will work a lot better during the spring/summer because there is more time to run games into the 1900-2030 range.

[Jewish Ninja]

Back to what Matt was saying about having an introduction to airsoft, I'm actually working on something like that now. I'd like to have an event that would be like summer slaughter (swap meet and skirm), only have it for free and cover all the basics. It wouldn't cover training or tactics, just the ropes that every new player should know. What to look for in a gun, what goggles work for them best (have a table setup with each of the different kinds of eye pro so they can try them all on), a table with each kind of gun (AEG, bolt, GBB, GBBR, SAW etc) so new players can get a hands on feel for what to expect.

In addition, have a live demonstration of what a hit is, what to do when your hit etc. Also a quick guide to gear, radios, BBs (what to use) and a battery primer. Also cover the basic sounds you'll hear in airsoft (did your hicap just unwind or did your piston explode, jams, motor becoming unseated etc).

The whole day would basically be like reading the stickies to new players/people that are interested in the hobby, but are unsure of what to do. After going through all that, we can have a swap meet so new players can pick up goodies from other players that are looking to thin their gear closet. Follow that with a skirm which will allow new players/parents to watch what normally goes on during a game.