League Membership / Card Voucher System

[Darius137]

Let me jump on the skeptic / pessimist wagon a bit. I suspect that if you start charging fees for a league that you will introduce a new element into the mix....liability and a duty to provide something......am I missing something here?

As far as the ability to upgrade sportsmanship and the ability to "police" miscreants......that would be laudable. That is the one thing that I observe people going on and on about in the forums after an event.

FYI Mossy, Laudable means worthy of praise. It's a good thing.

[Muskrat]

just a thought on this subject. People have tried to do this type of thing for paintball. It only works if its excepted across the board. All the playing area have to have the same rules or people will pick and chose where they play. Cost, everyone says they support a cause until its time to pay up.

I gather form the amount of people on this site and the game organizers there is some leverage here, start a league and have league events, not a member, cant play league events. If a member gets caught cheating, take his card or take his name off the roster for the season. In owning a paintball field the past, if you give allowance, the first time is a warning and the second time is a sit out one event, third time its over, people will take the first warning and think nothing of it. It should be a one and done.

[Seagreen]

I think the concept that Matt is supporting doesn't necessarily have to be heavy work and doesn't necessarily have to be a drama-squad problem.

Realistically, it doesn't need to be a "pay-for-the-service" issue either. Thus far AP has offered a free website to it's userbase. The matter of whether or not it's possible to add a plug-in to support the community further (in the ways that Steve suggested) would likely solve a lot of the problems. It wouldn't require any ruleset enforcements or player cards....just electronic +'s. (Nic's suggestion)

I estimate that ANY concept that requires a lot of "work" by a decentralized group of people will not function well and will eventually be scuttled. Something simple and pretty much transparent (such as the website plug-in option) would be the most functional option with the workload resting in only a couple hands. (Where the incentive for a more functional community site is already there from the advertising revenue being generated.)

[Deathlycobra]

Maybe we could have a PS3 approach to this (PS3 PLUS accounts I think they are called)

Normal Membership is everything you can do currently
Advanced membership is stuff you cannot do as a normal member

Just a thought.

[Steve]

I have no real interest in being "drafted" to a team.

That being said, when the plate gets passed for membership dues, make sure it swings past my way.

I believe that a league is the way to go, and I'm willing to back up my beliefs with my wallet. And whatever volunteer help I can provide. (Granted, that offer to volunteer is kinda limited, what with a blown knee and all, but I can probably manage to run a chrono and give safety briefs to the kids at training events)

[Matt]

I think the concept that Matt is supporting doesn't necessarily have to be heavy work and doesn't necessarily have to be a drama-squad problem.

Realistically, it doesn't need to be a "pay-for-the-service" issue either. Thus far AP has offered a free website to it's userbase. The matter of whether or not it's possible to add a plug-in to support the community further (in the ways that Steve suggested) would likely solve a lot of the problems. It wouldn't require any ruleset enforcements or player cards....just electronic +'s. (Nic's suggestion)

I estimate that ANY concept that requires a lot of "work" by a decentralized group of people will not function well and will eventually be scuttled. Something simple and pretty much transparent (such as the website plug-in option) would be the most functional option with the workload resting in only a couple hands. (Where the incentive for a more functional community site is already there from the advertising revenue being generated.)

This is pretty much exactly what I've been trying to say. There's a lot of ways we can improve organization that won't cost us anything at all, and there's many things I can do right here on AP to work towards fixing these issues - hence the reason I bring up this topic.

Now, if there is a league-like service offering worth paying for, maybe that's something to look at in the future. But we can't be sure until we weigh all the options. But that's a separate issue, and way down the road if it were to happen.

[Seagreen]

^ I agree completely.

[Muskrat]

I do not like the idea of having to pay to play in an already expensive sport. To charge someone you have to have service the warrants the cost. My personal thoughts are, if I am paying for a league $20 per year, this is not helping me or giving me anything I do not already have.

Here is another thing to consider, when people go to play at a publily advertised event hosts are not going to send people away, its basic economics.

[Ivan Daylovich™]

Here is another thing to consider, when people go to play at a publily advertised event hosts are not going to send people away, its basic economics.

Good thing Airsofters aren't in it for the money, eh?

[Muskrat]

Here is another thing to consider, when people go to play at a publily advertised event hosts are not going to send people away, its basic economics.

Good thing Airsofters aren't in it for the money, eh?

Call it what you want, its a business to open a field, When a commercial field operates it takes several thousand dollars a year. So any field owners should put the field together hold games plus finance your day out?

Lets see, Insurance full time is anywhere for 1000 to 1800 per year depending how long your business has been in operation. Restrooms for a large crowd, $30 apiece, 100 people you need about 5 at least. The list goes on and on So yeah if you own a field its kinda about paying the bills.

Its not a money grab, its covering your butt.

[Seagreen]

I can conservatively say I've helped host a lot of events over the last decade and honestly, you do sometimes take the good with the bad, but in general when the bad know you will ban them they tend to not be a problem...or they just don't come.
'
The economic aspect is basically irrelevant when you are talking to most of the event hosts. Sure it's great to make some cash on a show, but that isn't the reason you are making the show. You make it because you believe it is freaking cool and it'd be something you'd want to participate in if you were able to.

It's more about the cool factor than the dollar generator for most event hosts. Doing it only for money becomes pretty transparent to the community pretty fast. If you are talking about an organized field...it's a completely different ball game...been there, done that too. Still though, it's easier to turn away shitbags than to bring them in and hurt your business/event.

[Octose]

I came to share some input, just from my perspective, possibly throw an idea in here (sorry for late post).

I was thinking about something along the lines of a yearly membership, price is irrelevant for this at the time, but what if this membership brought some nice bonuses around. Say one individual would purchase this yearly membership, it would classify them as an AP Member etc. Those who purchase this would get an added bonus, possibly free swag, a shirt, a hat, nametapes etc, but what if we also implemented a factor in which you could get a few dollars off high class operations and games. I'm trying to base this off something like the Regal Cinemas card, you gain points, you get free concessions and tickets. We could incorporatedRick's initial idea of a leveling system, each game attended, you gain a few points, everytime you gain a level, you gain a level of initial "maturity" in the community, being allowed to go to varied games. The only real downfall to this is, our community has a large work force, and alot of us can't make it out to every event enabling their ability to get points, so what if we added something like Jester suggested, in order to gain this membership (in order to purchase so on so forth) you have to gain a "recommendation" from a well respected member of the community, someone who knows the boundaries. Of course, not everyone is going to have a membership, because, well not everyone uses the forums or wants to toss out a little bit of money, that's why I think the little extra initiative is involved such as discounts from games (2-3 bucks) and some swag (hell, were all gear whores anyways haha).

Of course there are loop holes, How would one obtain these points so quickly? Would games be malnourished of people due to level requirements? How will you determine the price of the membership?

Nonetheless, every big game will have cheaters, its life, shit happens, it won't be ridden of, the only thing we can do is try and get the least possible instances of cheating we can, the focus here really should be about trying to get rid of what we can, and the best true way to do that, is for everyone to be honest, the game is about honesty and it truly needs to stay that way. People come to games for separate reason whether it be repping your new $1000 loadout you spent years to create, shooting at people because you got bored of Call of Duty, or you want to feel the adrenaline of being lead by your squad leader into enemy territory, Not one game will everyone come to that specific game with a specific mindset amongst every player that shows up or else that would ruin some of the fun in my opinion. Minimalizing the threat of cheating is all you can do at this point, and minors aren't the only ones to cheat, there are those above 18 who do cheat from time to time (no one I know on the forums), It would be too much of a pain to try and do something like eliminating or minimalizing the threat of it.


P.S. Who wouldn't want to look flashy with an "AP Member" card in their wallets?

[Switchback]

I don't like the idea of actual cards; they'd get lost, damaged, not everyone would get one, etc. Here's my opinion on letting people into events:
There is a topic under a forum called "player stats". People who see good things, write it on the person's topic, likewise with bad things. If an event admin doesn't recognize a name on their roster, they search for their topic and can buzz through it, checking for problems. These would also be public, so other players could see it. The player could post like, had an awesome game, racked up some BA kills. Then someone could say, "but you're a cheater". It would be like a way for us to police the people we were with.
I also like the idea of more admins that don't play but walk around in orange or the like with the ability to help solve hacking problems.

(sorry I didn't read pages 4-10, my screens broken hard enough as it is)

[MillerSA15]

I don't like the idea of actual cards; they'd get lost, damaged, not everyone would get one, etc. Here's my opinion on letting people into events:
There is a topic under a forum called "player stats". People who see good things, write it on the person's topic, likewise with bad things. If an event admin doesn't recognize a name on their roster, they search for their topic and can buzz through it, checking for problems. These would also be public, so other players could see it. The player could post like, had an awesome game, racked up some BA kills. Then someone could say, "but you're a cheater". It would be like a way for us to police the people we were with.
I also like the idea of more admins that don't play but walk around in orange or the like with the ability to help solve hacking problems.

(sorry I didn't read pages 4-10, my screens broken hard enough as it is)

The problem with this (as we have been over) is that a lot of the problems are caused by people without accounts, and without AP interaction. They just get on the forums to find out when and where events are, then they show up, without ever making an account. Even if they do have an account, who is going to actually know them well enough to report it on their account? Most of the problem people are in their own little group of friends that would never report each other.

[Switchback]

True, but at least the player's forum/topic would help people not necessarily new to airsoft, but new to AP build a reputation that wouldn't exclude them from games. It'd be great (I think) for people who don't know anybody that could vouch for them.