What's the most important aspect of good mil-sim?

[Catch22]

I've heard that, but I've never seen proof of it....and I have serious issues with a picture sporting a can of Dr Pepper.

A members of a Deployed Aircraft Ground Response Element from the 1st Special Operations Security Forces Squadron catalog and bag evidence gathered from a simulated high value target elimination scene during the Emerald Warrior Exercise, Feb. 3. The forensic evidence collected from the scene could result in the identification of other high value targets.
(Photo by Senior Airman Julianne Showalter : 1st Special Operations Wing Public Affairs)

[Catch22]

Members of Operational Detachment Alpha 3336 of the 3rd Special Forces Group (Airborne) recon the remote Shok Valley of Afghanistan where they fought an almost seven-hour battle with terrorists in a remote mountainside village.

[Matt]

On the topic of time, I think a pre-registration requirement could cut out a lot of that time. If you used a secure online payment method you'd already have everybody registered. To even show up at the game, you have to be paid and registered. You could also have a digitally signed waiver or an agreement to terms including the waiver. That'd shave 2 hours of time in registration process alone. You can provide the unit tactics, movement, and training information on your website. If people don't read it, just make it more engaging, they'll pay attention.

And what if they showed up in their kit, minus an AEG of course, which is boxed up. Lion Claws requires that you be in uniform before you can even pass the gate. It was kind of a hassle, but at least everybody is ready to go as soon as they get there. (We still waited along time, go fig) Units can be ready for battle by simply removing their AEG from the case and throwing on their load-bearing equipment.

They gotta be done with all that bullshit and ready for war as soon as they show up.

[TOP]

On the topic of time, I think a pre-registration requirement could cut out a lot of that time. If you used a secure online payment method you'd already have everybody registered. To even show up at the game, you have to be paid and registered. You could also have a digitally signed waiver or an agreement to terms including the waiver. That'd shave 2 hours of time in registration process alone. You can provide the unit tactics, movement, and training information on your website. If people don't read it, just make it more engaging, they'll pay attention.

And what if they showed up in their kit, minus an AEG of course, which is boxed up. Lion Claws requires that you be in uniform before you can even pass the gate. It was kind of a hassle, but at least everybody is ready to go as soon as they get there. (We still waited along time, go fig) Units can be ready for battle by simply removing their AEG from the case and throwing on their load-bearing equipment.

They gotta be done with all that bullshit and ready for war as soon as they show up.

Good points, but you will still have people that did all that... and didn't read any of the Oporders... so they don't have a clue as to what is going on. Many "teams" have 1 guy sign the team up to come, but half of their team isn't even registered on AP... but they show up at the game without having read anything...

[Matt]

I still think you have to deliver the orders and the briefing at the game. I'm saying, cut out registration instead. Leaves more time for hand-holding and explaining how the OP works.

[McNair]

more hand holding.

[Chefzilla]

The time issue has always been a bone of contention for me. Don;t get upset Top but I'm going to use Steel Talon as an example. By the time we acutally got rolling it was 11 am. That was at least 3 hours of gameplay lost.

Also what seems to be missed here is space. Most of our fields are way too small especially for the number of people playing.

I'd love to see a game starting Friday night or early Saturday (0600). That would mean chronoing and registering early. Go until late that Saturday evening, have a small break until night game, then that night let the game go until people drop off. Start early Sunday and go until that afternoon for the raffle and awards.

Hell, paintballers do it! Why can't we?

[TOP]

We were actually supposed to start at 1000... I believe people were moving to the start about 1030... only an hour behind

[Bad Karma]

The integration of serious objective-based play, rather than force-on-force engagement, will seriously improve the effectiveness of this style of play as well. Look at the big OPs: people run and gun for three or four hours, then all of their batteries die, they run out of ammo, and their guns do gown. These guys are going through 2,000-6,000 rounds in FOUR HOURS!

With a much larger play area, and objectives that don't necessitate large engagements, it will enable these games to be conducted much more effectively.

[McNair]

i had a plan for a milsim game that everyone showed up on saturday... noon to early afternoon. There were a few "patrols" and shit run through, not much trigger pulling.
Then about 4 or 5 am sunday morning, eveyrone gets woke up to go roll. game runs from there until 3 or 4

[Jerm_G]

I first want to state that Im not against the idea of Mil-sim. How ever I dont think it will kick off quickly with large numbers unless it is semi cost effective and events are fequent. I do however think that the key for a good milsim start can actually be done if done right.

I feel the first step would be looking at a single common camo pattern for USFOR and one for OPFOR. The reason for this is that it is not cost effective for the individual to have to buy whole different load out every time there is an event. This is an important aspect when a single set of ACUs, MARPAT, or Multicam runs from $80 to $100+ for a well made set. This cost is compounded more when everyone is also buying a rifle, vest, boots, and real cap mags.

The second is training. No matter how much leadership and gear you have, if your team is using paintball tactics then your not mil-siming. The key is finding someone who is qualified to teach those tactics to a basic level that it doesnt take months to learn and that a large group of people with no military back ground can comprehend. No Im not recomending, me for that position unless you want training only one month a year.

Training also depends on the type of unit that is being represented. Army and USMC tactics and small unit builds are different. An Army infantry squad and a USMC infantry squad are built different and the squad load out and individual weapons issues are different. OPFOR should be studing the tactics used by the group they are mimicking. Pre event training is posible. I conucted it with my squad at OP S.T. right up to the breafing on the speed ball field. I beleave that who ever was running the camera at the event ended up with footage of it. I remeber seeing him there.

Last but probibly the most important is a welcoming community. The over all atitude of the comunity has to be enviting to new people entering the milsim enviroment. If someone doesnt have all the required gear, those that have extra gear set up a loaner system to get that extra player on the field. If someone is lost on the field, not getting in their face and yelling at them in front of everyone. Though it is common practice in the military, its a good way to loose players or get punched in the face (Ive seen it). There also has to be a point in the evening when the shooting is over to turn off the Mil-sim and just hang out and visit with friends. This is a leason learned from civil war events and does bring the community closer.

Start times, props and every other detail is great but can be done over time. Having the leadership to form the events and getting the ball rolling on just the basics (unit, gear, and mission statement) even if its only 30 or 40 people then lets go for it. I would be glad to jump in and play when im home as well as forward leasons that I have learned from my military experence when I can. If some one wants me to do a USMC platoon TO and E, I will be glad to write one up. I say we sould start putting together a group now insted of waiting for a event to start .

[Chefzilla]

Jerm brought up some really good points but I think what he's suggesting is closer to reenactment than milsim.
I believe we could have a really good milsim game if only a few things were instituted. Once again I'll use Steel Talon as my example. I was on the Cartel side and I'll use my observations from that. What I'm bringing up is in no way a slight. I don't want anyone getting pissed off at what I'm saying.

First, Platoon and Squald leaders need to make a concerted effort to bring their units together and maintain unit cohesion. I was assigned to First Platoon but I never saw my platoon leader nor my squad leader. The only time I ever heard a command to rally for First Platoon was when caseless, standing next to me, tried to get everyone together at the very first of the game.

Second, I don't think we should have had rounds. Don;t stop and reset let everything flow. Give each team their initial objectives and then as they either complete them or not then let that dictate what happens next.

Third, medics need to act like medics. Hand out casualty cards and let the medic do the work prescribed on that card with a time line. None of this getting hit, medic slaps a bandaid on you and in less than a second later you're back in the fight.

Finally communications and this also falls into unit cohesion. Not everyone needs a radio. Only the leaders do. It's up to them to desiminate that info up and down the chain of command.

Just a few thoughts, without having to go into the minutia of fps limits. Rules for rifleman, marksman and support gunners. Mag and uniform requirements. All of that should be up to the game organizer.

[Jerm_G]

That brings up another point. As a community we need to define what milsim is. This is my current under standing and please correct me if Im wrong.

Reenacting: realistic and accurate gear, clothing weapons, tactics, attitude, command structure and representing an actual unit in a point of history. Civil war, ww2, vietnam, or current day. 0 tollerence for anyting not used or out of period (Farby). This applies on and off the field at an event. This also requires all perticipants to have a significant knowlege of the history of that event.

Military simulation (MILSIM): Simulating military operations with close to accurate equipment, weapons, and tactics, and command structure though not to the degree of reenacting and not portarying a single unit or time period. (on field only)

Combat Simulation (COMSIM): Simulating a combat enviroment throught the use of realistic military objectives, tactics and command structure with little to no focus on equipment or weapons. (on field only)

Does this sound about right?

[Matt]

That was me shooting the video over there before OP ST.

My definition of mil-sim has to do specifically with teamwork and the mindset of the players involved in the event. Everything else is cosmetic. You could have a well-trained platoon of dudes with clear plastic springers and sweatpants. Would they look cool? Absolutely not, but they can do "mil-sim" if they have the right mindset. If they're all following a chain of command and working towards a common objective, in their eyes they are doing mil-sim.

There's 2 different themes I see mentioned here in this thread, either you look right, or you act right. Acting right needs to come first, looking right will come along for the ride... Because nobody wants to look like a moron.

I think having loaner gear on hand is a great idea. Also - putting out helpful information such as; where and what to buy for your uniform, and what makes up a typical load-out. When I started in the game, I wasted a lot of money on gear I used once and never used again. I bought everything wrong, I didn't know rip-stop from non, summer weight from winter weight BDUs or that the boots I bought would seriously KILL my feet. But somebody had to teach me about what to get.

I think teams should train more often too. If you have a team, get a field you can use and go there during off weekends when nothing is going on. If you own a field, let teams train there for cheap, they'll love you for it. Get your team to commit to once a month or every other month, drill basic squad movement even if they already think they know it. The only way to practice it is to do it, again and again. Eventually it's like second nature, but it takes time to get there.

Also - lets say you are a team leader and you don't really know where to start on training your team. What tactics should you use? Where can you find some curriculum, books, or documents on basic military squad tactics. Without some places to start, teams without proper training will result to following what they see in movies. We know how that goes.

[K-Mac]

Amen. Im in the process of forming something over here (Bend OR), but hardly any of the other players here take the gear/drills/mindset seriously. Almost all of the players dismiss firing drills as trivial... Ugh. Maybe I should let them know they are in for a royal a$$ beating if they dont learn.

I still remain largely ignorant to all the intricacies of gear selection, choosing a loadout for a specific application, etc, etc. Almost all of my current gear pisses me off lol. But I am willing to learn, and thus I am here.