League Membership / Card Voucher System

[Tin Man]

Ah. Quick scan didn't show that one to me. Ignore and continue, then.

[MillerSA15]

Basically this system would only be for hardcore misim games where any cheating really screws up the game and kills the realism for you. Of course any event organizer could require whatever they want for requirements at the game, but obviously the higher the requirements the lower the turnout. This discussion is basically about having a way of ensuring you have high quality players only, with a low margin for error (crappy players can't squeeze in), and having a reasonable way of implementing such a system.

Or am I very mistaken in what we are shooting for here?

[lilwil]

I feel that any system in place will be exploited by somebody. But I do like the idea, or something like the first few games they go to, required that one of their guardians play. This would create a situation where the guardians would at least have an idea of what the sport actually is, preventing confusion later on. Just my 2 cents.

[Chachi]

Basically this system would only be for hardcore misim games where any cheating really screws up the game and kills the realism for you.

But doesn't cheating screw up a small skirm too? I sure think it does.

[Jester316]

I don't have time to read through all the other posts, but I will say this.

I will be instigating my ideas for games that I host. I will publicly post the names of persons who earn a black tag at my events. I will hold those over 18 to the same standards. They can also be black tagged from games due to behavior. My goal isn't to ostracize people from the community, but to instigate a better behavior in regards to the community. I will not make exceptions. ANYONE under 18 that would like to come to my games needs to have a sponsor (even Juicemachine, Limpy, and a couple others).

[john boy]

Didn't we have a league a few years ago? That went over like lead ballon.

My suggestion is:
1) That CO's have to be 18 years of age or older and have been in the community 2-3 years.
2) Make team CO's responsible for their members Hacks and minors. Hence the team is responsible for their memberships behavior.
In the No. 5 RAC, prior to allowing recruit to join , who is a minor, we ask:
A. To talk to their parents and get verbal confirmation from the parent/guardian that their minor can do this sport.
B. We have written consent form the parent/guardian to seek medical assistant, along with a medical card, in case the minor iis injured at an event.
C. A veteran member, who is over the age 18, will be the guardian for a minor member for each event.

Part of this problem is that we have inundated with single unattached operators.
At an event that has single unattached operators, the host/Event CO needs to attach them to an organized team for that event.

[Jewish Ninja]

Chachi, I think the issue that everyone is rising is a lack of accountability from all players, no matter what the age group. I personally welcome noobs (actual new players that are new to the hobby and need a push in the right direction) and discourage newbs (people that think they know everything since they've played COD all their life). Having more noob friendly events, training and "freshman orientation" events will help get the noob players up to the point where they can be upstanding and helpful additions to the community and weed out the newbs that are just here to run and gun, and make a mess of the whole thing.

We've all seen the random people show up in their hoodies and paintball masks (just an example) and fail to call their hits, play in an unsportsmanlike way and just be general douche bags (not to be confused with major douche bags). Its next to impossible to blacklist them because no one knows who they are. Having a system set where people can be held accountable would benfit everyone involved in the hobby.

[MillerSA15]

Chachi, I think the issue that everyone is rising is a lack of accountability from all players, no matter what the age group. I personally welcome noobs (actual new players that are new to the hobby and need a push in the right direction) and discourage newbs (people that think they know everything since they've played COD all their life). Having more noob friendly events, training and "freshman orientation" events will help get the noob players up to the point where they can be upstanding and helpful additions to the community and weed out the newbs that are just here to run and gun, and make a mess of the whole thing.

We've all seen the random people show up in their hoodies and paintball masks (just an example) and fail to call their hits, play in an unsportsmanlike way and just be general douche bags (not to be confused with major douche bags). Its next to impossible to blacklist them because no one knows who they are. Having a system set where people can be held accountable would benfit everyone involved in the hobby.

You got those backwards...newb is a newbie, someone who is simply "green". Noob is the cod playing failboat.

[Jewish Ninja]

I've heard it explained both ways. The point remains that the good noobs need a push in the right direction and the bad noobs need a push in front of a bus.

[KA-BAR]

i like alot of the ideas stated already.

i fell that this would be a great program for minors. it teaches them community, accountability, and good sportsmanship.

if you are and adult and have not learned these traits, chances are this card isnt going to do jack squat for you.

i think it is a great program for the under 18 crowd to break in. i think it would be a great way for them to intergrate into the community.

if there is a membership fee, then i think this is a great marketing ploy to generate funds for someones bank account. yearly and cheap.

as for a APL or a leauge, i like the idea. its going to be hard work. i think it should be seperated like baseball. a major and minor leauge. alot of adults do not consider under age minors thier peers. they do not want to make friends and hang out with other peoples kids. the generation gap is way too huge. also alot of minors do not want to play with grumpy old men. if they do, there is something wrong with thier social radar.

age groups need to be handled more appropriately. then promoters can run non milsim, fun shootem ups for the kiddies. they still get the revenue from that age bracket and dont have to worry about the adults bitching that the game ruleset is not complicated enuff or milsim'y enuff for them. then if the adults want to envolve themselves, then they can attand those minor leauge games and mentor/instruct with out foisting it on those that do not wish to go this route.


an app for Ipod/android sounds like it should have been done the same time the CQC7 and BSP challenge videos should have been.....yesterday.




KA-BAR out

[Matt]

If we could borrow the card system like the soccer leagues have (indoor and outdoor), I think the quality of play has the potential to go up. Each entity has setup that each player have a picture ID card. This states that they have signed a release form that has a yearly renewal. The usual cost is about $10-$15 per year (per facility; in a case like mine, I have up to 3 cards for different leagues) but can go as high as $35 (Oregon Adult Soccer Association). When you show up to a game you HAVE to submit the card to the referee before the game. That way, if there is a problem, like a red card, he yanks your card, submits it to the governing body of that card and it is noted in your account. As long as they have your card, you can't play. (Usually a red card means you miss the next game then the card is returned to you.)

Our situation is unique in that each event promoter has their own release, so someone could potentially have 3-4 cards yearly which could get costly at $10-$15 per card. I also can't help taking this a bit further that if we had a governing regional body for airsoft (Airsoft Pacific League (APL) for the sake of argument), the yearly card fee's could pay for the administration, running events, etc). If each promoter was APL certified, then an APL card would be good at any APL sanctioned game. When I did mountain bike racing, NORBA was set up like this for $35 per year, and the fees went to good causes (trail projects, etc.) and running NORBA (advertising, media, etc.).

The more I think about it, the more questions come up, but I think a round-table discussion might be worth while if people were up for it.

Yes, this is pretty much exactly what I'm talking about. We have discussed this concept before, as some people remember. But back when we really weren't ready. There weren't enough players, there weren't enough organizations, and there weren't enough places to play. These days we have new fields asking AP for advice such as where to get insurance or how to build their fields out. They want us to tell them what we want so they'll have a great place to play for us, to me we sound more and more like a league every day. We're advising these folks on what's legal, what's safe, and what we consider fun.

I see two ways to go with it. Either commercial, which sounds like what Gabe is talking about. Or something free. The limitations on a free service would probably be that you continue to come up with your own waiver and insurance, and we have no actual cards - just records on a database that need to be checked. There's more work involved with validating a member, basically. We would have to keep costs down. Going more commercial with it and charging a low yearly fee per member would allow us to print custom membership cards, send materials and info to members who join, host monthly safety/training meetings, and give us the potential for purchasing some liability insurance that our members could be covered with. There's also the argument of, if you spend money on it, you will be more serious about being a part of the league.

Another problem we had back in the day was too many cooks in the kitchen. You don't need a representative from every team in a room to figure this out. Leave it to a few professionals with the experience to design something that's beneficial and helpful for all of us. I could see a system where you guys elect somebody within the community or vote on who might be represented on a board of directors. (please don't do this now) The group would never need to be more than a handful of folks, and we could have open meetings to hear from the general community from time to time.

It also has to be extremely simple. I would avoid required training days or other long-winded criteria. Just having somebody's name on record with a card helps us regulate our members and weed out the bad apples. Training is great, but mandatory, I'm not sure. Maybe if we had an indoor arena that would allow us to use an indoor spot on a regular basis. I could see monthly "Airsoft 101" safety trainings for parents + kids being nice, and could be potentially mandatory. Any indoor field owner would be happy to host because that's new potential customers in their facility every month. I don't think you need to base the system on mil-sim skill, there's different ways to play and there's different types of games. But we want the same safety practice and HONOR observed at all of them.

So would a low yearly cost league with monthly introduction meetings (possibly required for new members), membership cards, and some sort of liability insurance be worth it to you guys? I'd have to estimate out actual costs and get some quotes but I could imagine we could keep it really cheap.

[Jewish Ninja]

I'd be up for a paid league system. The main question the leaps to mind is..."What about new players? Do they still need to pay the fee to register before they can play at a big op?"
This system can work, but we don't want to scare off potential new players by saying "before you can come to this super duper op, you need to pay us for an ID card". We would need a way to allow new players (say friends/family of established players) to come in and give the game a try before getting into the whole league part of it. If we base it off the player who vouches for them, then it should work. I just don't like the idea of making it difficult for new blood to join.

[Matt]

I don't know if it would scare off new players that much. In fact I have received emails from people who are interested in playing asking me how much it costs to become a member, and/or how much it costs to register a team. Some people are surprised it's free. The costs for playing sports in school is skyrocketing lately, anything we come up with would be only a fraction of that... And the season is all year long.

Plus there will be plenty of regular games still promoted here. My hope is that the incentives would be worthwhile to joining the league. Better quality player base, maybe a discounted OP price? Maybe retailers and vendors would get involved too. I also like your idea about a voucher, or possibly a system where you can bring a guest with you as a 1 time pass. You could attend as a guest and/or go to open games to see how you like it. I see it being like a gym membership, you can always bring a friend with you to the gym at least once so they can try it out.

[Falcon7]

Personally, I don't have a lot of cash laying around and I'm only able to make it to a few OPs per year. If I have to start paying membership fees to go to certain OPs, I would just steer clear of those. It's already pretty expensive for me to drive all the way to where most OPs are hosted, then pay an entry fee. Membership on top of that is a bit much. I would just stick with the regular games in my area and OPs that don't require membership. There would have to be some serious benefits involved.

[quigly]

The serious benefit would be better game play. And because it would only be an annual thing, it isn't like its stretching out your budget much.
The question that popped into my head is, if we did do a yearly fee, would it be at the start of the year, or a year from start date? Obviously the problem with doing it at the start of the year is the people who aren't here at the start of the year would most likely phony pony about not paying for a full year. But if it was from date of signing up, it seems like it would be hard to track who as payed and when they need to.