Higher FPS for Medium Machineguns

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Postby Nocte » Sun Jan 16, 2011 10:49 am

I'm going to play the field here:

@Dan: I'm curious where you came up with the 600 FPS figure as a starting point. I understand that you're interested in extending the range of a particular platform to make things more interesting, but "I dunno, just make it 600 FPS" doesn't seem well thought-out. Perhaps if you had a particular effective range in mind, or a desired range advantage over your general 400 FPS rifle, you could arrive at a number that's got some reason for being there.

@Morgan:
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As seen (measured with a .30g bb) in the graphs, he's only gaining about 70-80 feet of range by increasing the velocity. This also speaks nothing for his accuracy. I doubt this is a serious threat to the bolt-users, as you still have more accurate fire and range. It might even be a challenge to pick off a target from a moving vehicle.

@Pharaoh6:
I understand where you're coming from, but the conversation on this topic has been done to death so much that a lot of AP is sick of hearing it, even when it's spelled out in a (mostly) meaningful and mature way. The reaction you're seeing is a knee-jerk response to the general topic, not a thought-out response to the post. There is also a bit of politics involved with a few of the involved parties, and that's not helping. Add in pickles and KA-BAR, and you have a recipe for a nasty thread. I can appreciate your non-biased rationale in being here, and I wish others would emulate it.

Also, I think Catch22 was kidding about the M240B. I think that's what the smiley face implies.

@pickles:
Dan doesn't need you to make his points for him. Dan is a smart enough guy to handle this kind of discussion without you getting everyone riled up because you have some need to argue about everything. Despite your intentions, you're not helping.

@Bad Karma:
I'm pregnant. It's yours.
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Postby Seagreen » Sun Jan 16, 2011 11:34 am

The testing perameters appear to be missing a string of data. Namely high velocity .2-.28 weights.

Those would be the spoilers for either argument concerning range....
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Postby Falcon7 » Sun Jan 16, 2011 11:49 am

If you are going for realism shouldn't the MGs be feared because they have more ammo not because they have more range? You could require real caps if you wanted to have an event like that. Just sayin.
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Postby Steve » Sun Jan 16, 2011 11:50 am

I'm (still) a supporter of upping the velocity for CSWs, SAWs, and DMR platforms.

CSWs / SAWs (or ARs, depending on who you talk to) are primarily for laying suppressive fire at long range to provide ballistic cover for assaulting elements. As such, using non-accuratized CSWs with a higher velocity allows them to lay down a beaten zone rather than a shot group at a longer range than a kid with a box mag.

DMRs are accuratized rifles. They are exspecially useful to accurately engage targets at ranges greater than can be effectively engaged with a battle rifle. Higher velocity accuratized semi-auto rifles seem like a good check / balance for SAWs / ARs / CSWs.

Personally, an accuratized DMR would benefit from a boost to 450 FPS. A SAW / AR would benefit from a FPS boost to 450 FPS (with no barrel / hop-up upgrades allowed). True CSWs such as the M60 and the M240B would benefit from an unaccuratized FPS of above 450.
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Postby Nocte » Sun Jan 16, 2011 12:08 pm

Seagreen wrote:The testing perameters appear to be missing a string of data. Namely high velocity .2-.28 weights.

Those would be the spoilers for either argument concerning range....


The point I'm making with these graphs isn't what the graphs were intended for, so they aren't as perfect for making my point as I'd like. What I'm trying to show is that the jump from 400 FPS to 600 FPS is a range difference of about 70 feet. Yes, I'm aware that the only mass of bb that the two plots share is the .30g, but if you compare the two you'll see that the range difference falls within my estimate.

If you choose to compare .20g or .25g weights across both plots, the range difference will be similar on since the mass of the projectile is static.

The range benefit to using a heavier bb is noticeable, but not really significant.

Here's a few more plots. The yellow line is 600 FPS, the orange line is 400 FPS. What you should be comparing is the difference in space from where the line falls below 0 (which represents, roughly, your point of aim), not when it hits the bottom of the graph (which would represent the ground)

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Postby Nocte » Sun Jan 16, 2011 12:09 pm

Also, here's 0.28g. For some reason the plot colors change, so the black line is 600 FPS and the blue is 400 FPS.

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Postby Jester316 » Sun Jan 16, 2011 12:22 pm

I was thinking about it, and I'd be up for higher CSW limits. IF they used a barrel 6.1mm or more in diameter.
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Postby Matt » Sun Jan 16, 2011 12:29 pm

Why not get ahold of other communities or mil-sim game hosts who have used rules to allow heavily upgraded CSWs in the past? See if they had any safety issues and how it worked for them.
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Postby MillerSA15 » Sun Jan 16, 2011 1:48 pm

Jester316 wrote:I was thinking about it, and I'd be up for higher CSW limits. IF they used a barrel 6.1mm or more in diameter.


Out of curiosity, why?

@Nocte: Awesome graphs, I think an extra 50 feet or so difference between 400fps and 500fps (using the .3g bbs) is enough to justify it, plus the fear factor of the gun shooting hotter.

@Mini-Marine: In other parts of the country there are fields that allow much higher fps limits due to their size, and there are people that upgrade their guns to fire at 30+ rounds per second, at 500fps, or even 550fps, and the gun has enough reliability still (using good quality parts) to be feasible. Obviously the machine guns in question here would need to be gone over with a fine toothed comb to make sure all the parts in them were of the highest possible quality, and that every possible modification be done to ensure the most reliability, but I don't think 600fps is the limit where a gun cannot possibly be operated viably.
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Postby Seagreen » Sun Jan 16, 2011 2:01 pm

Why is this even a debate?

If a game promoter wants to institute a higher FPS regulation for platforms, that promoter should do it. If it gets player support and is well controlled...well then, it's successful, if not then they likely won't go down that path again.

This discussion is nothing more than that...a discussion that has no end.

Increase the velocity, decrease the velocity....it's all good, assuming it is controlled by the game admins.


edited to add:

Why not get ahold of other communities or mil-sim game hosts who have used rules to allow heavily upgraded CSWs in the past? See if they had any safety issues and how it worked for them.


I'm not sure Matt, but I think AP is one of the only communities that has a legitimate level of order.
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Postby Jester316 » Sun Jan 16, 2011 2:10 pm

phoenix1421 wrote:
Jester316 wrote:I was thinking about it, and I'd be up for higher CSW limits. IF they used a barrel 6.1mm or more in diameter.


Out of curiosity, why?


A CSW isn't meant to pinpoint rounds onto a target. They are meant to put large amounts of rounds down range in a large area to keep heads down. Utilizing anything tighter than stock (6.08mm) would decrease the spread of the bb's. This decreases the effectiveness in the proper utilization of the weapon, and greatly increases the chance of injury multiple rounds striking the same spot in a matter of milliseconds.
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Postby Steve » Sun Jan 16, 2011 2:30 pm

Jester316 wrote:
phoenix1421 wrote:
Jester316 wrote:I was thinking about it, and I'd be up for higher CSW limits. IF they used a barrel 6.1mm or more in diameter.


Out of curiosity, why?


A CSW isn't meant to pinpoint rounds onto a target. They are meant to put large amounts of rounds down range in a large area to keep heads down. Utilizing anything tighter than stock (6.08mm) would decrease the spread of the bb's. This decreases the effectiveness in the proper utilization of the weapon, and greatly increases the chance of injury multiple rounds striking the same spot in a matter of milliseconds.


Been saying that for a while now. Stock barrels, mixed ammo weights within the box, higher velocity.
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Postby Catch22 » Sun Jan 16, 2011 2:32 pm

Pharaoh 6 wrote:
Catch22 wrote:An M240 bravo dosen't have to be mounted on a tripod. Shit.. You can fire that from the hip while running. ;)


Apparently you've never touched a M240B. Whether real steal or airsoft that would be quite difficult.
I didn't say it wasn't difficult, but you can do it
--break--

I'm sometimes amazed at the lack of maturity and intelligence that is displayed on these forums. Maybe I'm one of the few, but I understood Dan's post from the start. My panties aren't all tied up in a knot over FPS changes.
You state a lack of maturity then throw out a dig. How very mature of you.

Dan just wanted to have an adult conversation about the practicality of MG teams/weapons. He is presenting a concept for open and mature discussion. If you have something constructive to input, then put your comments in.
Dan's purpose for this is to stir the pot. Something he's quite good at. Higher FPS for full auto weapons is dangerous. You don't seem to like what I'm saying so write it off as not being constructive or immature. Well done sir.

Immaturity like...I'm not coming, bloody face, band aids, "oh this crap again" and all the rest of the negativity doesn't contribute to the discussion.
Way to read. Higher FPS for full autos will go past the bloody face and lead to serious injuries

And Catch..Pulling games? That's immature. Just because YOU don't like an idea doesn't mean you need to ruin it for those who do. You want a voice. Don't show up. That says a lot. There are a lot of games in this community that I don't like, but I don't make bold statements about having them pulled. Personally I think zombie games are for kids and full grown adults who still play xBox in their parents basement in between shifts at Game Stop. But those people and others who like those types of games enjoy them. So I say to each his own and save my cash for the more mil-sim type of events. I don't threaten to have the game shut down.
Pulling the game wouldn't be because I don't like it, but because it isn't safe. AP has pulled several games because they were unsafe, illegal or otherwise dangerous.
Last edited by Catch22 on Sun Jan 16, 2011 3:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Catch22 » Sun Jan 16, 2011 2:42 pm

Matt wrote:Topic name changed.

At OP Gallant Saber II up in WA, they ran two 500 FPS gas Asahi M60s mounted to an M113 all day. Nobody got hurt. The weapons were operated by the vehicle crew, who were essentially part of the volunteer staff for the game. The made the vehicles more feared because the crew-served weapons had more range.....


They were feared because we couldn't shoot back at them. ;)
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Postby McNair » Sun Jan 16, 2011 2:49 pm

Rabble rabble rabble
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