Undecided, GBBR or AEG or Blowback AEG?

[binicb2r]

no prob. forgot about barrel twist too. improper twist rate for .22lr. groove diamerter is .221 and .224.

i guess i didnt look at the fact a good AR upper is actually 5.56. slightly different chamber from .223. i dont see how a .22lr cartridge can work properly in a 5.56/223 chamber. just doesnt seem safe/right to me.

still, IMHO, might as well do it right for minimal amounts of money more and it only takes a couple seconds to swap uppers as long as you dont need to swap bolt carriers. that might add a minute or less. why not make sure all the parts are designed to work together.

[LiquidSnak]

The G&G blowback system doesn't waste battery. It's actually quite ingenious.

[NFS_Shadow]

alright ill have to check it out. anyways cheap aeg metal bodied like 300 dollars and your got yourself a good but not perfect gun. obviously muscle memory wont be perfect but it will be darn similar

[Steve]

alright ill have to check it out. anyways cheap aeg metal bodied like 300 dollars and your got yourself a good but not perfect gun. obviously muscle memory wont be perfect but it will be darn similar

Umm. No. Even a 16 year old should know better.

Okay. So, under stress, people release this chemical called adrenaline. It's part of the whole "fight, flight, posture, submit" reflex, and it's a good thing. Sort of.

See, adrenaline works to prep you for either hitting people or running away. It causes (in most folks, anyway) increased heart rate and respiration, which puts more oxygenated blood where your muscles can get to it. As part of the adrenaline / stress response, most people tend to "tunnel focus" on the immediate threat, ignoring or deprioritizing other stimuli. Part of the stress response causes degredation of motor control (although I don't entirely understand it). This degredation is mild in gross motor skills (think, clubbing somebody like a baby harp seal), but can be a whole lot more seriously detrimental to fine motor control. Like, for example, pressing a bolt release catch. Which is why a lot of shooters train to release the bolt catch by using their support hand to slap backwards on the charging handle (gross motor movement) rather than trying to find the stupid button, and why (in part) MagPul made the B.A.D. lever. That shit don't work with AEGs, not even Systema PTWs.

Now, reloading drills are pretty dang important, since you can't exactly say "Please Mr. Bin Laden, let's pause for a few minutes while I reload". And part of the reloading drill? You guessed it: returning the bolt to the forward and locked position. Failure drills on an M-4 / AR? Tap, rack, bang. That doesn't work? Drop the mag, reef back on the charging handle a few times, insert new mag and go.

AEGs are simply not designed, let enough built robustly enough, to be used as serious training tools. On the plus side, the availability of aftermarket parts means that you can build out an AEG to be pretty cosmetically similar to a real rifle, down to the RIS and muzzle brake. It's better than nothing, but a far cry from good enough, let alone good.

They are great for teaching Use of Force and doing Force on Force training. But they just don't cut it for teaching basic critical firearms skills.

[binicb2r]

good points. for reloads an AEG should be perfect for tactical reloads but not for FTF, double feeds, FTE, ect. if you really want to practice the charging handle and all that you wont get the right feel, my AR is very very stiff to pull, or length of pull but you will get the location of the charging handle and the bolt release. the bolt release is just kinda slapped anyways.

if an AEG is built up exactly like the weapon you are training for, example; magpul stock, grip and hand guard, PMAGs, some sort of hefty weight on the end of the barrel ( if the real gun has a chunky flash hider like a noveske flaming pig or suppressor ) and similar optics like an eotech replica if the real one has an eotech your going to get basic muscle memory. with a tube sight or holosight you do not need the same sight picture, just put the dot on the target, the mag well isnt going to move, fire selector isnt going to move, handguard/reference point isnt going to move.

BTW, are the buffer tubes on an AEG usually different from a mil spec or commercial buffer tube? will real AR hand guards fit? how about real trigger guard parts? real gun parts seem to be cheaper for some reason.

[Jester316]

no prob. forgot about barrel twist too. improper twist rate for .22lr. groove diamerter is .221 and .224.

i guess i didnt look at the fact a good AR upper is actually 5.56. slightly different chamber from .223. i dont see how a .22lr cartridge can work properly in a 5.56/223 chamber. just doesnt seem safe/right to me.

still, IMHO, might as well do it right for minimal amounts of money more and it only takes a couple seconds to swap uppers as long as you dont need to swap bolt carriers. that might add a minute or less. why not make sure all the parts are designed to work together.

It seems to me that you don't really know how a .22lr conversion works. I suggest your read up on them instead of just sweeping them away.

[LiquidSnak]

Buffer tubes on an M4 style AEG are hollow throughout from back to front, not front to back. This is to accommodate the attachment point. Some AEG's will fit real steel parts

[binicb2r]

no prob. forgot about barrel twist too. improper twist rate for .22lr. groove diamerter is .221 and .224.

i guess i didnt look at the fact a good AR upper is actually 5.56. slightly different chamber from .223. i dont see how a .22lr cartridge can work properly in a 5.56/223 chamber. just doesnt seem safe/right to me.

still, IMHO, might as well do it right for minimal amounts of money more and it only takes a couple seconds to swap uppers as long as you dont need to swap bolt carriers. that might add a minute or less. why not make sure all the parts are designed to work together.

It seems to me that you don't really know how a .22lr conversion works. I suggest your read up on them instead of just sweeping them away.

i have and nothing will convince me to get a conversion kit. if your going to spend the money might as well do it right. the conversion kits just seem kinda half baked. its not the right chamber, barrel, ect. plus, as i said above, i have a nice 22lr rifle, sig 522. not an M4 platform but runs the same mags as the dedicated 22lr ARs and the conversions, mag well is in the right place as is the fire selector. breaks down the same way too. even as an eotech replica. ill be shooting open class as i would with the AR. im going to bet that the sig will run circles around a 22lr conversion kit like it does to a 10/22. same is true with the dedicated uppers from my experience, ive only shot tactical solutions 22 uppers.

a 22lr conversion kit is a bolt and magazine to adapt a rifle, such as a 5.56mm AR/M4 to shoot the smaller caliber. now a full conversion is an upper. for something like a glock, a conversion kit is the slide and barrel, including all the firing mechanisms. its a system made to work together then put on a great platform. not cobbled together to let someone save a buck by pushing a small 22 casing way down the chamber.

my $0.02 worth.

[Jewish Ninja]

Just curious, do you have any evidence of the drop in accuracy using the drop in kit? I'd love to see such

I personally have a drop in kit because I didn't wanna buy a whole new set of bits for another upper.

[LiquidSnak]

a 22lr conversion kit is a bolt and magazine to adapt a rifle, such as a 5.56mm AR/M4 to shoot the smaller caliber. now a full conversion is an upper. for something like a glock, a conversion kit is the slide and barrel, including all the firing mechanisms. its a system made to work together then put on a great platform. not cobbled together to let someone save a buck by pushing a small 22 casing way down the chamber.

my $0.02 worth.

Except you show me a handgun that is being converted from .223 to .22 and I'll let this one go. Something like a Glock goes from .35 caliber (9mm) to .40, to .45, etc etc etc

significant increases of HUNDREDTHS of an inch, rather than a couple thousandths.

And if you're worried about shoving a .22 into your barrel, you should really pay attention to what people tell you. Read the frick up about .22 conversions, and you'll find out they have an adapter for the chamber.

[binicb2r]

a 22lr conversion kit is a bolt and magazine to adapt a rifle, such as a 5.56mm AR/M4 to shoot the smaller caliber. now a full conversion is an upper. for something like a glock, a conversion kit is the slide and barrel, including all the firing mechanisms. its a system made to work together then put on a great platform. not cobbled together to let someone save a buck by pushing a small 22 casing way down the chamber.

my $0.02 worth.

Except you show me a handgun that is being converted from .223 to .22 and I'll let this one go. Something like a Glock goes from .35 caliber (9mm) to .40, to .45, etc etc etc

significant increases of HUNDREDTHS of an inch, rather than a couple thousandths.

And if you're worried about shoving a .22 into your barrel, you should really pay attention to what people tell you. Read the frick up about .22 conversions, and you'll find out they have an adapter for the chamber.

the 22 conversion has the funky bolt that shoves everything down the chamber. ive seen lots of 223 pistols, most are ARs and AKs though. seen a couple odd ball one off bolt action 223 and 7.62 pistols at the reno show. ha! heck, i bet tromix has done something that wild.

like ive said before ive only shot a complete 22lr upper on an AR and was impressed. a proper bolt, proper chamber, ect. for only a bit more you can get the complete upper now. for my AR, im not going to skimp out on a 180 dollar conversion when its 330 for a complete upper. might as well do the job right.

check out some of the 22lr conversion threads at places like ar15.com. some people like them and some people, like me, dont. there is a reason they make complete 22lr uppers. ive heard some conversions run very well, like the CMMG, where others run best wet, like spikes tactical. all i know, the tacsol upper doesnt even care if its wet or dry and didnt cost much more then a good proper 22lr stainless conversion and has a proper barrel twist rate. 1/9. 1/7 and 1/12 are not very good for 22lr. 22lr likes a 1/16 twist rate.

my view will not change for these reasons;

price is not much more and includes an upper, barrel, hand guards, front sight, stainless bolt and flash hider. and you can throw allsorts of the CMMg goodies on it for bolt hold open and forward assist. ill always spend more on a real firearm then a toy/airsoft gun.

proper barrel twist rate. dont have to use a twist rate for a much heavier bullet and i dont have to use up that estimated 6 seconds of lifespan of my 5.56 barrel. ~9,000ish rounds in a 1/9 twist barrel.

proper 22lr bolt, not some funky adapter bolt that shoves a small cartridge way down the chamber.

proper barrel size in the grooves and at the lands.

i already have a good training 22lr based off the sig 556. very similar setup as an M4gery.


not to sound arrogant or rude but if i was to be in the market for a 22lr conversion/complete upper a forum on fake guns would not be where i go for help. from my experience, college aged people, dealing with airsoft people is that 99% of them know nothing of real guns. its kinda saddening but it is good they are participating in some sort of marksmanship but they should leave the dam finger OFF the trigger and quit muzzle sweeping me! as an officer of the airsoft club here at my college, the VP and i are avid marksmen and fellow M4gery shooters and are constantly after people about safety. many of the people in the club i would not trust with a firearm let alone an airsoft gun. shooting every which way to test or clear their guns.


i do appreciate the interesting conversation, the points of view and any new info you guys are bringing.