Why? What? FPS?

Airsoft safety discussion. Post here with questions about laws and safety concerns.

Postby Junto » Sun Oct 10, 2010 9:32 pm

john boy wrote:
Personally I will never attend a CQC/CQB that have fps limits over 330. I am totally in agreement even dropping the limit to 300 fps, as Alex been wanting to do for years..
It isn't CQC/CQB. It is the same as rushing the village at Sniperz Den, or any village at Splat Action, or simply playing any part of the field at Warpaint. this is being held at The Farm, which is an outdoor field with outdoor structures that people will be assaulting for training just like they'd assault one at any AP OP ever hosted on a field with buildings. You have already done this.

If you want to talk about new rules, then you'd best get on every field owner and event coordinator doing anything at any field where you may be shooting someone in a close area (any field at all) and convince them all to lower their limits.
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Postby DJ » Sun Oct 10, 2010 9:37 pm

Nocte wrote:
Darius137 wrote:...people who aim for teeth...

...KA-BAR's boasts of shooting teeth...

...people aiming for my teeth...


KA-BAR wrote:and then there is the fact that there are assholes like me out there in the bushes that like to shoot people in the face, and so i shoot some poor mouth breathers tooth out...


As I said on your boards, Dan, a statement that says he's intentionally aiming for your face is not a statement that he's intentionally trying to shoot your teeth out. If this quote is what you're hanging on to, I don't think you've got much. He never said he's aiming for teeth.

The rest of his quote is anecdotal, at best. It does not imply intent, only one possibility based on his actions.



163.175¹
Assault in the second degree
(1) A person commits the crime of assault in the second degree if the person:
(a) Intentionally or knowingly causes serious physical injury to another;
(b) Intentionally or knowingly causes physical injury to another by means of a deadly or dangerous weapon; or
(c) Recklessly causes serious physical injury to another by means of a deadly or dangerous weapon under circumstances manifesting extreme indifference to the value of human life.
(2) Assault in the second degree is a Class B felony. [1971 c.743 §93; 1975 c.626 §1; 1977 c.297 §2; 2005 c.22 §110]


As in sub b above, it does not have to be intentional. Knowing +physical injury+deadly or dangerousn weapon = assault 2, B felony
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Postby Bad Karma » Sun Oct 10, 2010 9:38 pm

Darius137 wrote:Notice that what we believe is not always what is true? I recommend many of you go out there and challenge what you have as beliefs to sound reasoning. You'll find that many of what you used to think are beliefs--even core beliefs--are just opinions you've had long enough to make you think they are based in reality.

The airsoft community at large believes that because we've been using 330 or 350fps as our standard because of some sort of safety reasoning.


That's because it is inherently safer than a 400FPS standard. Basic physics shows us that two objects of identical mass traveling at different velocities will have different kinetic energies. There is a clear and direct correlation between the amount of kinetic energy an BB possesses and the amount of damage that BB will inflict when it meets its target.

One could argue that the difference in the velocity of a projectile at 330FPS versus the same projectile at 400FPS is not great enough to be considered a safety liability. However, I think a strong argument could be made the other way. Strictly speaking on the basis of anecdotal evidence, people in this community, at large, seem to think that 400FPS is not a limit, but a goal. There are consistently discussions surrounding getting guns to shoot at their respective limit. This alone is enough to warrant a serious examination of the safety of certain velocities when event promoters exercise their right to promote games that are not in adherence to community guidelines (my own games included).

Let's play with numbers.

Simple math tells us that force F is equal to mass M times acceleration A.

To do this equation we must find acceleration. Acceleration can be defined as the change in velocity V divided by time T.

A= Change in V/T

First we convert FPS into m/s.

400FPS x 0.305 = 122m/s
330FPS x 0.305 = 100m/s

For time we must consider the environment at hand. In my experience with strict CQC environments (within structures) , most engagements happen at 5m or under. So:

5m / 122m/s = 0.041s
5m / 100m/s = 0.05s

Back to acceleration:

122/0.041 = 2975 m/s^2
100/0.05 = 2000 m/s^2

Now to force:

0.0002kg x 2975 m/s^2 = 0.595N
0.0002kg x 2000 m/s^2 = 0.4N

So, in very simplified terms, the difference in impact force of our 0.2g projectile is 1.95N between 330FPS and 400FPS. In other words:

A BB traveling at 400FPS carries 33% more force than the same BB at 330 FPS

I don't know about you, but that seems like a pretty big difference to me. Please keep in mind that my equations do not account for negative acceleration as a result of drag or other forces acting on the BB. However, the effects of those parameters should apply roughly equally to both projectiles.

I'm not going to get in to the amount of force required to break skin, because there are far too many important variables to consider when it comes to kinetic energy impacting an elastic object (skin), especially when the elastic force that skin will exert on the BB will vary widely depending upon the amount of collagen in the skin, the location on the body, etc.

However, with a 33% difference in the impact force involved between BBs at the two different FPS limits, it is a pretty safe statement to say that a 330FPS limit will yield consistently safer gameplay than a 400FPS limit, at least when engagement distances are close enough for the BBs to be traveling near their initial velocity when they impact their target.

Therefore, Dan, I will readily buy that your decision to not establish separate FPS limits for the MOUT scenarios is one made for convenience, but please don't claim that there is not a substantial difference in the safety of using a lower velocity.
Last edited by Bad Karma on Sun Oct 10, 2010 9:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Junto » Sun Oct 10, 2010 9:40 pm

By that virtue, hasn't everyone on AP who has knocked out someone's tooth or left a bloody welt on them at least come close to committing a felony?

This is getting ridiculous.
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Postby Nocte » Sun Oct 10, 2010 9:40 pm

DJ wrote:163.175¹
Assault in the second degree
(1) A person commits the crime of assault in the second degree if the person:
(a) Intentionally or knowingly causes serious physical injury to another;
(b) Intentionally or knowingly causes physical injury to another by means of a deadly or dangerous weapon; or
(c) Recklessly causes serious physical injury to another by means of a deadly or dangerous weapon under circumstances manifesting extreme indifference to the value of human life.
(2) Assault in the second degree is a Class B felony. [1971 c.743 §93; 1975 c.626 §1; 1977 c.297 §2; 2005 c.22 §110]


As in sub b above, it does not have to be intentional. Knowing +physical injury+deadly or dangerous weapon = assault 2, B felony


Again, how does this not apply to everyone playing airsoft? We all know it hurts. We all intentionally shoot one another. We're all using "deadly or dangerous weapons" to perform these injuries upon one another. Why can't I sue for a welted nipple?

Your argument seems to base itself on the presumption that a shot to the head is a serious physical injury and a shot to any other part of the body isn't.
Last edited by Nocte on Sun Oct 10, 2010 9:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby DJ » Sun Oct 10, 2010 9:46 pm

Nocte wrote:Again, how does this not apply to everyone playing airsoft? We all know it hurts. We all intentionally shoot one another. We're all using "deadly or dangerous weapons" to perform these injuries upon one another. Why can't I sue for a welted nipple?


Yes you could sue for the above injury. The difference between you and other individuals is that you do not go around making outrageous statements about liking to head shoot people and as a result knocking out peoples teeth. Like mentioned in some of the above posts, there is an inherent risk in air soft that is expected. It is not reasonable and therefore unacceptable to have individuals who add to the inherent risk by engaging in inherently dangerous behavior and causing unnecessary injury. And please note sub b. It is not "serious physical injury" It is physical injury, a significant difference. All of the elements must be present. Knowledge, Injury and weapon.
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Postby KA-BAR » Sun Oct 10, 2010 9:51 pm

the the entire community is going to jail!
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Postby Junto » Sun Oct 10, 2010 9:52 pm

KA-BAR wrote:the entire community is going to jail!
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Postby Darius137 » Sun Oct 10, 2010 9:53 pm

Without arguing just to win an argument, lets look at this:

.8 Joules = punctures eye ball. That is 262fps. Even at our lowest settings, you can puncture eyeballs.

Yes, Justin, you can prove with numbers that 330fps and 400fps are different numbers. The result is the same. There is no increased danger when even the lowest number produces a pierced eyeball.

In accord with all of the information gathered, I have decided that I will be requiring eye protection whenever I host an event!
Last edited by Darius137 on Sun Oct 10, 2010 9:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Nocte » Sun Oct 10, 2010 9:54 pm

DJ wrote:
Nocte wrote:Again, how does this not apply to everyone playing airsoft? We all know it hurts. We all intentionally shoot one another. We're all using "deadly or dangerous weapons" do perform these injuries. Why can't I sue for a welted nipple?


Yes you could sue for the above injury.


That's upsidedown up.
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Postby Junto » Sun Oct 10, 2010 9:55 pm

Darius137 wrote:In accord with all of the information gathered, I have decided that I will be requiring eye protection whenever I host an event!
A huge leap forward in airsoft safety! Truly something to applaud!
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Postby Darius137 » Sun Oct 10, 2010 9:55 pm

john boy wrote:So where is this event taking place? I think you need to discuss the fps limits with the site management and their insurance.. If the event site and insurance agree then all go for CAG.. If anyone gets hurt by the fps limits then it is Dan's, CAG, Site and insurance a$$'s.
As a community we have the limits set for teams/clubs/units who are a part of the community. If CAG wants to go out and use different FPS limits and we as a community don't like it. Then as a community we ask CAG to leave and avoid the site. Or not..

Personally I will never attend a CQC/CQB that have fps limits over 330. I am totally in agreement even dropping the limit to 300 fps, as Alex been wanting to do for years..


That is your choice. I am assuming this is why you guys never actually do go to games?

Because every large field in the area has some form of urban site, and that is CQC. And all of those fields have a 400fps limit.
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Postby DJ » Sun Oct 10, 2010 9:59 pm

Nocte wrote:
DJ wrote:
Nocte wrote:Again, how does this not apply to everyone playing airsoft? We all know it hurts. We all intentionally shoot one another. We're all using "deadly or dangerous weapons" do perform these injuries. Why can't I sue for a welted nipple?


Yes you could sue for the above injury.


That's upsidedown up.



I whole heartedly agree. This is why people sue McDonald's over hot coffee getting dumped in their own laps and it not being labeled as "hot". A jury awarded a large award to that idiot. This is why there are idiot labels on everything. It is also why everything costs so much. Risk managers control almost all phases of govt & business because of such foolishness.
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Postby MillerSA15 » Sun Oct 10, 2010 10:03 pm

Junto wrote:By that virtue, hasn't everyone on AP who has knocked out someone's tooth or left a bloody welt on them at least come close to committing a felony?

This is getting ridiculous.


This IS getting ridiculous. It was started because of KA-BAR's posts telling of the intent to hit people in the face, that is where the legal stuff came from. If you have not been bragging about shooting people in the face, it does not apply to you. Also, yes KA-BAR did express a desire to knock teeth out a couple posts after he made the post about accidentally knocking a tooth out, anecdotally.

Bad Karma, pretty much what Dan said. You have proved that a shot at 400 fps has more energy than a shot at 330 fps (33% more energy). What you didn't prove is that the difference means anything in terms of safety. I have a feeling the risk of injury is much greater from two shots at 330 fps than one shot at 400fps, so should we allow everyone to use 400 fps in cqb, but only have bolt action rifles?
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Postby dom186 » Sun Oct 10, 2010 10:05 pm

DJ wrote:
Nocte wrote:
DJ wrote:
Nocte wrote:Again, how does this not apply to everyone playing airsoft? We all know it hurts. We all intentionally shoot one another. We're all using "deadly or dangerous weapons" to perform these injuries upon one another. Why can't I sue for a welted nipple?


Yes you could sue for the above injury.


That's upsidedown up.



I whole heartedly agree. This is why people sue McDonald's over hot coffee getting dumped in their own laps and it not being labeled as "hot". A jury awarded a large award to that idiot. This is why there are idiot labels on everything. It is also why everything costs so much. Risk managers control almost all phases of govt & business because of such foolishness.


If this was facebook, I would like this.
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