PTOC

[wake.adrian]

I'd have to agree with Joe. Having been a bystander also, and pretty much always conscientious about handguns and such, IMO it was a safe situation.

I do remember the "too hot for CQC" jokes, but I thought that before that it was stated?
Also, yes, I was standing there to keep an eye on them, like Joe had asked, so there was no lack of supervision We always try to be very safe about that kinda stuff.
And I believe the reel steel issue in the past was a misunderstanding of someone thinking that Joe's airsoft gun was his real steel - they are completely identical. As an example, Joe's RS looks exactly like Mobius' gun in his Iron Man picture for the costume contest! Hogue grips and all

I don't know, I guess being there, I feel like the situation is being misconstrued. More that you didn't notice/hear that I was supervising the guns and that they were placed there specifically so that people saw them as RS, and not just pistols in my hands. Since we don't know each other, and you don't know my abilities or intentions, so that obviously wasn't the safe option.

And if you'd care to get into the debate of airsoft and RS not mixing - I believe the S4 guys also carry in their business and as the business owners it's their right, as it is Chris's inside of PTOC.

Just my two cents, I know people will think what they want, etc etc.

edit: I may not have been within arms length at all times, but I made sure I never took my eyes off of them with your stuff sitting there also, I didn't want you to feel awkward with me hovering xP

[Tombstone]

I remember once reading an AP rule that if you were ever found to have RS on the property of an airsoft event, it was like...inta-perma-ban.
Is that just something I made up, or was that actually written down somewhere?

[wake.adrian]

I just looked through all the rules I could find, this was the only thing I could find specifically:

"All "real" weapons including but not limited to firearms and fixed-blade knives are NOT allowed at games. Folding utility knives and pocket knives are allowed as an essential part of survival kit, but they may not be used in game-play."

Under Info > Safety Rules > Number 8!

Doesn't mention anything about a business or anything..

[wake.joe]

During the event, the guns were safely locked away anyway.

We're talking way way way after-hours here. It wasn't at an AP event.

[Portland Tactical]

I am posting this here because, in my eyes, this refers to a retailer. If any MOD's think this goes somewhere else, please move it.


I am not sure if I should post this or not, but I am deeply concerned. Two nights ago, Saturday, I was cleaning up at PTOC from OP Lazarus, when PTOC Chris and his buddy came out. They were trying to kick down a training door, that I believe was built by/used for BSP, when I see them reach into their waist bands. They proceed to place on the counter a Springfield XD and a 1911 (RS, not airsoft). I instantly knew what they were, however there was a 16 year old actor there with me (we were the only 2 there). The 16 year old proceeded to ask if those were airsoft guns, to which Chris replied that they shoot a little to hot for CQC. They proceeded to kick down this door approximately 10 feet from their firearms. I know this might seem trivial, but I honestly felt unsafe in the area. They not once said they were real firearms, and they did not maintain control of them.

I don't know if I am just being stupid, or what. I honestly don't know if this is even post worthy. I guess I just wanted to warn people of what was going on there. Even though he is moving out, I still feel the need to let the community know what was happening there. I have heard that this isn't the first RS issue, but this is one that directly affected me.

Ok, I am going to try and maintain composure on this, and this is the only reply I am going to give.

First of all, The door belongs to PTOC. It was built by Chase Crimmins, and dontated to PTOC. Secondly, anyone out there who things real steel and airsoft dont mix, you should probably not go to S4 tactical. If you think those are airsoft guns on their hips... ITS NOT.

My weapon is always concealed in a public environment. ALWAYS. As the S4 Guys would say loud and clear that it is ok to display your firearm at your place of business.

A friend and I (both legit concealed permits) were using the breaching door that belongs to MY company AFTER HOURS. We placed our weapons on a counter not even 4 feet away to prevent our weapons from falling out of our carry position.

There were two people there, but still, my place of business after hours. It is our policy, AND S4 KNOWS IT whether they admit it or not, that during business hours, real steel is locked up. All people, all guns no exceptions.

The previous issue that DIDNT happen, was a WE single stack 1911 that looks very much like the springfield 1911 that he carries.

To avoid further confusion, I put that policy in place. And my weapon is always locked up during hours unlike all S4 employees, that display their weapons at all hours of business.

The bottome line is, Geoff said that all people were done and gone, and when we went out there two people came in (Jester and kid) to pick up. kid asked me if it was airsoft, I relpied as you stated, and and stated I was putting them down on the counter. I made very clear what I was doing, which I am not obligated to do IN MY PLACE OF BUSINESS.

We were both in complete control of our weapons, in a controlled environment. We were never more than arms length from them and had enough trust in you Jester, that you wouldnt go near it.

Here is the funny thing. As soon as you left Jester... I totally said that it would get posted on AP... took you longer than I expected.

So, bottom line... once we secure our new location, the policy will still be the same, NO FIREARMS ALLOWED WHILE WE ARE OPEN> it is a part of our briefing we give everyday.

End of story...

[Portland Tactical]

I remember once reading an AP rule that if you were ever found to have RS on the property of an airsoft event, it was like...inta-perma-ban.
Is that just something I made up, or was that actually written down somewhere?

Yeah, well this didnt happen at an AP event. it was well after the game, we were closed. and it was in MY private business place.

[Portland Tactical]

No matter how you want to spin it, real steel in a place known to only frequent airsoft guns is a very bad idea. Him carrying it is not the issue him leaving out in the open is.

Unattended firearms is how accidents happen. How many time we see in the paper where a kid found daddys gun and shot himself with it or someone else.

It should have been locked away in his office. Since I have a CCL and so does he I know he has been taught on proper safe keeping of his firearm.

Sounds like you have a bigger issue with S4. Unattended firearms IS how accidents happen. We are not talking about unattended firearms. we are talking about firearms that were placed together on a table 4 feet from a door we took turns breaching. when Joe kicked, I stood by the guns, when I did it, so did he.

We had complete tabs on where the other people were in the building, and there was 0 chance of any accidents happening at that time.

Real Steel and airsoft are mixed daily at S4 maybe not unattended, but as i stated before mine was never unattended eithe, and I dont care if they want to say that they are trying to market to the real steel demographic, they are still an Airsoft store, currently most of their clients are airsofters.

[Portland Tactical]

i would say that is a HUGE issue.

airsoft and real steel do NOT mix #1, and #2 careless disregard for unattended firearms at a airsoft location is also, very poor form. since he is closeing his doors, and shutting down buisness, i guess it wont affect him much now.....but in the future, trying to get community participation might be a problem. guess he might want to market his services outside this community, i doubt he will be getting much support from it anymore.


#3 when the accidents began to happen, there will be no turning back from " oh shit, where is mah gat? i left it on the table out front!! oh shit i better go get that quick before some kid picks it up, thinking its a airsoft gu......"

BANG!..../walks in to find dead kid on PTOC floor, bleeding out.

/buisness plan = bloused, index please.

Morgan,

I have tried so hard to overlook your blatent stupidity on these forums, PTOC related or not, but I just cant do it anymore. I am suprised anyone lets you near sharp objects.

That being said, we are not shutting down business. We are merely looking for a better location, as our study with the city proved that this building is not suitable for expansion. There is no sense in over paying for a space I will not expand into.

As far as community support? OH MY GOD... REALLY?.... wake up

[KA-BAR]

the mighty dollar speaks ....and in this economy...you are in no position to shit on me or the community, ...outing me for being retarded is like getting bellbottoms and saying look, the 70's are back. and it wont overshoadow your blatent disregard for community rules, set in place for saftey.


i dont give a rats a$$ how much money you had to start up, you need funds to keep going, you need players to keep the doors open, and if noone feels safe in what ever rathole you decide to set up shop in, there wil be noone there. play airsoft alone for all i care, spend your days kicking in the phoney door to vent your rage on how stupid you were to shit on te community.


thx for playing....your game is bloused in my book.

[wake.joe]

PTOC has players that keep the door open.

The Airsoft Pacific community didn't have a foothold on PTOC income. In fact, not having this kind of bullshit would FAR outweigh the 100 dollars in total that AP may have brought in in the last four months. This number may or may not be accurate, but the point remains. The AP community made up a very small percent of PTOC attendance.

[KA-BAR]

i wonder how many of the parents of those kids would leave them at PTOC for the day after reading a thread like this one or several others based around PTOC's operating polocies.




have fun in your new home.

[wake.joe]

I wonder how many of those parents would leave their kids at PTOC after hours, in the middle of the night.

[Seagreen]

Sounds like you have a bigger issue with S4. Unattended firearms IS how accidents happen.

Chris, although you are drawing a comparison to the firearms issues you are having in this discussion, I do not believe we are talking apples to apples with S4 and PTOC.

S4 is in process of fulfilling all its FFL requirements, employs NRA certified firearm safety instructors, and already can provide firearm support with ammunition and other accessories.

The intent, or the way your statement reads, suggests that S4's owners are unsafe with firearms and leave these tools laying about like childrens play things. That is certainly not the case. S4 is has established it is an open carry store, more to do with its future as it expands its business. This was made very clear to all individuals involved this weekend, not so much "showing" as in stating if someone asked or noticed there wasn't a fill valve on a magazine.

Everyone has been to a gun store we all know the nature of the business, as with all firearms shops, attendants generally carry. The statement Chris made suggests the attendants/owners of S4 are pulling their steel and dropping it on the deck like it's some kind of show and tell hour. Discrete, safe, and non-factor are the appropriate terms for S4.

This doesn't excuse in any way leaving loaded firearms unattended, but I do not know the in's and the out's of the situation the other night at PTOC. It's not my business, it isn't my responsibility if PTOC does or does not do that....it was after hours and closed to the public at the time.

I just want to square this up before S4's name gets pulled into this fray as a part of PTOC....which as everyone involved last weekend should know very clearly it is not.

[DMitri]

Secondly, anyone out there who [thinks] real steel and airsoft dont mix, you should probably not go to S4 tactical.

Thanks for the advice.

[Matt]

Ok, Jester had a concern, PTOC has addressed it. I don't think we need any further grab-assery going on here. Since two parties who were actually there have now commented, this should be ready to close.