23-24 June - Mugambi calls - Back to the Jungle

[Eyes On]

If you don't think it was worth the money, then next time don't go. I understand what you're saying McNair, but the rest of you can stow it. You went, you played, and you learned whether or not you want to go again. Hellmutt, I commend you on posting your costing work; I'm only concerned that someone was low rent enough to ask for it. As I recall, that was deemed such last time someone asked for that info around here.

I'd have traded my duties this weekend with anyone in a heartbeat to attend this event.

[The Duke]

I'm going to break away the discussion of cost to something I enjoyed the most of the game.

All negotiations that I was in were all very intense, especially the last one regarding the PMC's who had one of our regen flags. As I walked down, I heard Knuckles say that were gonna just waste them. I then non-chantly took position north-west of the negotiation with I believe TT or KK, I don't quite remember his name but he joined with us when 1-1 was cut down in the bushes. The negotations didn't seem to go to well and then two of the PMCs decided to test their weapons to my southwest, but good thing Littlesniper was there past the two PMCs. Man, was I ready to take the PMCs down, most likely Littlesniper would have shot one of the PMCs while I knifed the other as TT or KK would just spray the PMCs in the negotiation circle. But, a deal was struck and I was left disappointed. Man, I really wanted to take 'em down. Didn't they turn on us shortly after?

[McNair]

My comments are in my view called "constructive criticism".
Being I did pay money, I can phony pony all I want That's part of what I paid for, I believe

[Beran]

I'm only concerned that someone was low rent enough to ask for it. As I recall, that was deemed such last time someone asked for that info around here.

from skimming over the previous posts and what i remember, nobody actually asked for how much it cost. hellmutt volunteered the information.

[Catch22]

Listen to Gunny.

I've heard alot of positive from this game. Sounds like alot of people got to shoot and people were calling their hits. Sounds like a good game to me. Lets keep it upbeat.

[RangerWarren]

Thanks to all of you from Oregon who attended. Players really make an event. I appreciate all of your post game input, both praise and critismism. I take consider this an E-AAR and you are all just giving me my sustain and improve points. Look for an oficial AAR of the action and evalation of Mission sucess/failure for both the MNTF and the MIG forces in the next couple of days. once again thank you to all the players who walked, walked, walked and slung plastic death at Operation Gallant Saber 3.


RLTW
Warren

[hellmutt]

Hellmutt, I commend you on posting your costing work

Thanks Gunny. I have nothing to hide. I am a business man and I have never represented myself as anything different. This makes some people dislike me. I think that is unfair, I have never seen a post on AP where anyone complains that the new gun/gear/supplies cost more then wholesale - let alone the manufacturing cost. Maybe it is because I supply a service and people cannot see where the money goes. So I posted my costs because I have the exact same questions when I attend an event. Take Lion Claws for example. If 500 people pay $150 that's $75,000.00 - I don't know where that money goes. I know we had more props then all 6 Lion Claws put together. I know we had more role players then all 6 Lion Claws together. I want to know where that money went, but John Lu isn't about to post his costs because he is a business man who doesn't really care about the community.

I could make far more money doing a variety of things that I am qualified to do. I made a 6 figure income in computer work but I left it because it just wasn't how I wanted to spend my time. I entered airsoft as a business nearly 4 years ago and I can assure you that I have not broken even from the money I have spent promoting, growing and trying to make airsoft what I believe it can become.

I will go a step further and tell you exactly how much money I made from this event: $500. I was hired to run the event for PSAC and ScottJ. I negotiated a fixed fee for my key staff and myself for the event. The rest went to them for intellectual property rights. I do not feel bad at all for making $500 which breaks out to about $3.00 an hour for my time. I used to make $95-$120 an hour for programing so those who think I do this for the money are highly mistaken. I do this because I love it and I believe that airsoft needs to be more then 'ready, set, go' paintsoft games.

As and example, I paid nearly $600 for KP24 out of pocket and while I enjoy the airsoft community, it just didn't make sense to continue to loose money running events. I am sure that many people would have liked it if I would continue to loose money but then I wouldn't be doing events any more.

If $10 is going to break the bank, then you might want to consider a new hobby. Contrary to popular belief, airsoft is not cheap. Producing high quality events isn't cheap either. GSII cost $60 two years ago. The average national scale airsoft event is $90-$175. A 2 hour concert costs $70 on average. I believe I delivered more entertainment then a 2 hour concert and I feel our events are better then most national based events.

The truth of the matter is, no matter what I do, no matter how much I charge and no matter what happens - there will always be people who do not enjoy my events. Too much walking, not enough space, too much space, not enough prep, too much prep. . . it doesn't matter. If a person comes with an attitude not to enjoy themselves - they are not going to enjoy themselves. I wish that wasn't true and I could have a magic wand that could make things better for everyone but I don't. I can only do the best I can and try to learn from mistakes.

Bottom line is that I am very happy with the event. I didn't loose money, the vast majority of the people enjoyed themselves, and I think I delivered the most "milsim" experience of any event that I have produced. My goal is not to create a game where people can shoot 10000000 bbs. You can do that any given weekend anywhere across the country. I wanted people to walk away with an idea of what it is like to be in the military without all the BS that goes with it. It wasn't perfect, many things could have gone better but they went pretty damn well.

I would like to clarify a couple of points that were mentioned in previous posts:

1) Fires - No ground fires, facility rules. You could have brought a BBQ or raised braiser. Considering the amount of grass I thought it was a fair rule.
2) Fireworks - Warren had 2 fire extinguishers in his ruck and we had several in the vehicles and fireworks don't produce the amount of flame that say a camp fire does.
3) Porta potties - We had 2 porta potties moved to the campsite by the field owners. There were porta potties at the campsite.
4) Mowed grass - The land owners mower broke on Wednesday, we had planned to have the area mowed but circumstances prevented it.
5) Pre-payment - We accept checks and money orders via mail - instructions were on the registration page if you bothered to register.
6) Chrono - We had 2 people on chrono and when they left so they could eat we had others go out to help when asked. I am not sure how we can assure that all chrono numbers are "confirmed" - if someone is going to cheat they are cheaters and they will figure out how to cheat the system. I can think of half a dozen ways people can cheat chrono. But we are in a game of honor and you have to trust people sometimes. I guess I believe most people are honorable and trustworthy.
7) Food - I don't think you could have gotten a better deal on the food if you purchased it from anyone else. Would it be cheaper if you made it yourself? Sure. So would popcorn at a movie theater or a beer at a baseball game or water at the airport. It's called supply and demand.

In closing, if you really feel I should give you your money back - then post it here and I will return it to you out of my pocket but I will ask that you never attend a Battlesim event again. I think that is fair.

[Capt DOA]

Hey Hellmutt,

I like the honest post and getting seriously to the point. "Seriously, don't pay anyone out of your pocket"
If anyone on the MIG side wants there money back, contact me. I will pay you myself out of pocket. Between me and my wife, we do ok,we have rental property here and a place in NYC & Colorado. So, if you hated the event that bad, make a post here. I will confirm with Hellmutt over the phone that you were there and you played on the MIG side. Some of you know i have been looking for a building to buy for indoor CQC. All i ask is that you do not attend or become a member if i get this deal done. I feel the same as Hellmutt, i love Airsoft, while i miss my Bothers in Arms in the service. When i play, i can see there faces taking orders from me, counting on me to make the right moves in training & the battlefield, so they can go home to see there family. Its funny, most of you don't really know why i even go by Capt DOA.
I don't wear a name tag because on any given day i play airsoft, i play for those soldiers who Died fighting for are country,plus those who served with me not alive today. I can see there name across my chest to the right of my Ranger patch & my 3ID patch i earned with pride.

So if a little rain,needles and lack of action was missing for you. Please take a moment to rethink what you are playing. Don't get me wrong, i like to hear the bad & good of a event, but really think before you make a post.

[Beran]

so ill admit, im just skimming back over this here, but has anyone actually asked for their money back? i don't think so, so you guys can quit being so defensive. take whats been said as (mostly) constructive criticism and start planning GS4.

[hellmutt]

Did you not write this?

there was a point where i was going to ask for my money back

I guess I will be less defensive when you stop attacking. Ask for your money back and I will give it to you. Or perhaps you would rather just complain because you know if you ask for your money back people might think I am a stand up guy who stands behind his product.

[McNair]

Hellmutt,
I don't believe anyone is attacking you.
People are giving their opinions of the op.
This happens for EVERY op.
I always post my pros and cons for every op I attend, as do many others.
It's your choice whether to take it as an attack or just someone's opinion that they are entitled to.

Baron posted that at one point during the game. There is a difference between then and now. He is not asking for it now, or anytime since he changed his mind during the game, so please calm yourself.

[Beran]

Did you not write this?

there was a point where i was going to ask for my money back

I guess I will be less defensive when you stop attacking. Ask for your money back and I will give it to you. Or perhaps you would rather just complain because you know if you ask for your money back people might think I am a stand up guy who stands behind his product.

i did indeed. here, let me repeat it with some emphasis on key points:

there was a point where i was going to ask for my money back

is that more intelligible now? even after your offer, did i ask for my money back? i mean, hey, free op and all and i didn't even take it? thats a tank of gas right there. i was unpleased with the game in the beginning, and even at the end, it was not my most favoriteist airsoft game ever. would i go back and pay and play again? your damn right i would. probably would have tried to play out some engagements differently, but id be right back out there in the grass and the rain.

[RangerWarren]

I will try to order more rain for next time. I dont think we had enough.

[hellmutt]

I am calm. How can I be accused of being defensive if there is nothing to be defensive about? I am merely explaining the situation and offering a solution to people who express that they did not have a good time. I don't feel right taking money from people who didn't enjoy the event. That is part of being in business. If I sell you something that doesn't meet your expectations - I am going to refund you. It's really that simple.

[Beran]

I will try to order more rain for next time. I dont think we had enough.

see if you can get some hail too, try for BB size. that makes it really interesting.